What bullet group can be expected with a 75 BB

[Larry (Omaha)]

All my muzzleloading experience has been with rifled barrels. I have a new 75 cal Brown Bess that I would like to learn how to shoot. No rear sight of course but that is not what this post is about. I have shot it just to see how it works, but never really put it to the accuracy test. What is a good patch/ball/charge combo for killing paper?
What can be expected for a 5 shot group say at 50 yards?
Flintlocklar :idunno:

 

[Black Hand]

Much depends upon load development and the person behind the trigger. Smoothbores take more practice to achieve consistency.

At 50 yards, you should be able to put your shots in a paper plate.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

At 50 yards, you should be able to put your shots in a paper plate.

I’ll go with that! :metoo:

Personally I try for all to primt in a 6” circle, fired offhand to boot, but there’s a TON of load development and practice to achieve that ... especially that given the nut behind the trigger!

Sometime, search for the 50Y record target that Tip Curtis once shot using a flint smoothie, all 5 touching, forming a ragged hole in the X! Simply amazing!

I use that for both inspiration and motivation ... but I don’t think my paper cartridge loads are up to THAT level of accuracy. However, when I only shot 1 flintlock (62-cal Wilson fowler) and burned up to 8-pounds or more in a season ... my groups were the best ever!

Now w/ a stable of flintlocks, I am good at all, but a master of none ...

 

[rdstrain49]

Flint, Tip's group inspired me also. Using a Tip built Issac Haines 54 smoothbore, I can fire a 3 shot clover leaf group at 50 yards consistently, can even do it offhand once in a while. I'm confident that my Issac Haines will do it, but I've not been able to do the 5 shot trick, not yet anyhow.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

That’s great shooting sir!

I’ve had moments of success ... like when I burned LOTS of powdah annually, but having kids now sure pulled the damper closed on that ignition, haha!

Still it is something to ”˜shoot’ for ... and on some days ... well, my signature expresses my efforts & results the best :rotf: ...

 

[tenngun]

When I owned a Bess I never shot at more then 25 yards, and much with buck and ball or buck shot. When I got a FDC I found no trouble keeping sub five inch groups at fifty yards. I can cloverleaf at twentyfive yards.
Patches seem not to have been used in smoothies back then. At twentyfive yards I have no difference between PRB and wadded ball. At fifty a patch is a little better but a wad but not that it would give you a hunting advantage.
Your Bess will match a slug from a modern shotgun everyday of the week.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The target below was shot with musket shown below mounted with a Colerain 46" long land pattern Brown Bess barrel. After load development I shot the target from a bench at 50 yards. The load, patch, and ball are written on the target. The shots marked "A" were with loose unpatched ball.

dave

 

[Brokennock]

There are pictures of that target in a current thread about smoothbore accuracy on the American Longrifles Forum.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Dave Person,
Nice post and good photos. I am encouraged by your group although I do not have a Colerain barrel. My Bess is a Pedersoli and it shoots a .735. I have never shot a "loose" ball meaning nothing but powder. I know you mean nothing around the ball, but what about keeping it down? Are you referring to a paper cartridge that has the paper stuffed over the ball? Thanks
Flintlocklar :idunno:

 

[dave_person]

Hi Larry,
Yes, the paper stuffed over the ball. In battle, the soldier normally rammed the ball down still wrapped in the paper cartridge. The paper acted a bit like a patch. However, on sentry duty, they would load what was called "running ball" which was just the loose ball on the powder with the paper wadded on top. Remember, the ball was much smaller than the bore. That allowed them to draw out the ball easily by using a worm to pull the paper out and then the ball rolled out. That way at the end of their duty, they did not have to fire the musket or draw and ruin a patched ball with a ball puller. My shots marked "A" are "running ball".

dave

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There are a several "schools" for musket shooting. One uses a paper cartridge and the paper is used to snug the ball up to fit the bore of the .75 (If it's a vintage Italian Bess, check the bore, a few were .72)

The next uses a patch like a rifle.

The next uses the size ball that you mentioned, .735, with a wad of tow between the powder and the ball and another wad on top.

Finally, ... there's the group that distresses the ball surface with a farrier's rasp. Now some folks think this is to make it like a golf-ball, and they do sorta look like this when rasped, but the only guys that I've seen with success doing this took a .735 ball, and when they rasped it..., the tiny bits lifted from the surface of the ball touched the inside of the barrel. :wink: Thus the ball was evenly snug but with very little friction. They would load the ball with a wad of tow between the ball and the powder, and the friction of the distressed sides holds the ball in place.

LD

 

[Stumpkiller]

Back when I had a Bess I could keep a 6" group at 50 yards offhand. Past that it fell off rapidly.

 

[Rifleman1776]

(If it's a vintage Italian Bess, check the bore, a few were .72)

They did vary. Mine is an 11 ga. I used a .731" prb. Never tried 'loose' ball. Sometimes I could hit what I was aiming at. Misses were me, not the fire stick. :redface:

 

[spudnut]

I had a colerain barred ll that was tight even with a paper cartridge, I just had to do my part, practise is everything. A friend can put it in a paper plate at 100 pretty regular with his pedersoli

 

[toot]

is there any benefit to bare balling and has any one done it?

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

toot,
In my limited knowledge about smoothies I assume you mean by bare balling, total nude ball. I believe the term bare balling means no patch, but something on top of the ball to keep it on the powder, unless of course the ball is tight. I would never fire a ball without knowing the ball stayed firmly on the powder charge. What do you other guys say?
Flinlocklar :hmm:

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

is there any benefit to bare balling and has any one done it?

I believe the term bare balling means no patch, but something on top of the ball to keep it on the powder, unless of course the ball is tight.

Some guys who shoot at my Club, all ex-military, shoot flint smoothbores of 69 to 75-caliber only and shoot full service loads, of bareball or paper cartridge loads only. Their guns have never seen a patch! And by service loads, I mean nothing less than 120-grain charges or more. Large smoothies need the velocity for best accuracy (long distance) and I've even proven this for myself too!

Back to bareball, they'll shoot 2 different size balls, one larger in the paper cartridges and when too foulded to ram easily, they'll bareball that ball/cartidge, but will ram the paper down on top of the ball to keep it seated. When those rounds are too big for the bore, they'll switch to a bareball sized a good 10 to 15 one 1000ths smaller ... load, seat and fire.

I don't do that ... but believe me, these guys really know their arms and loads really well and what they're doing! They'll wipe any other Team off the planet at 25-35 yard speed shoots ... unreal to witness.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They should try a British Military course of fire.

Each shooter gets 24 pre-rolled cartridges holding a .680 ball and 115 grains of 2Fg. These conform to the specifications for target shooting loads from Cuthbertson's System for the Complete Interior Management and Oeconomy of a Battalion of Infantry, that would have been issued to British regular soldiers for "firing at marks", since Pioneers and not regular soldiers made the cartridges for the private men.

At open order (a single arm's length apart) at 50 yards the line of five shooters fires at five silhouetts of standing men, in 8 minutes time (some shoots they use only 6 minutes), and rammers must be replaced when firing. A hit anywhere on one of the five targets is a "hit".

Any musket that becomes so fouled the round cannot be rammed home is done, and problems with flints sparking and clogged touch-holes = "oh well"..., no alibi's for a stuck ball or any other malfunction of the musket preventing the firing of the full 24 rounds. The the shooter is free to load bare ball at any time, and of course may knapp a flit and prick a touch hole as any soldier would.

It's one thing to load like a member of a Company of Select Marksmen..., quite another to load issued ammunition as a private in the line would be issued. :wink:

LD

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Flint62Smootie

25-35 yard speed shoots

Very interesting to hear, but for me I wonder where our "safety factor is here? Not tying to spoil one's fun, but a accidental discharge will ruin anyone's fun.
Thanks again for the post.
Flintlocklar :wink:

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Flint62Smootie

25-35 yard speed shoots

Very interesting to hear, but for me I wonder where our "safety factor is here? Not tying to spoil one's fun, but a accidental discharge will ruin anyone's fun.

I hear you ... they do it at ”˜private, invite-only events’.

I did witness one showing at a local Club shoot and they out-shot the BP rifle shooters soooo bad, that the rifle shooters made the excuse of the dangers of the bareball loads to have them banned from future events. As I said, these guys can shoot! Similar to British Fusiliers ”˜mad minute’.