What Bullet

[Hein]

Hi everyone.
I recently got bitten by the muzzleloading bug, therefore I am glad I found this wonderful forum!!
As I am still new to this fascinating subject I am trying to source as much info as possible regarding muzzloading. I am interested in getting a 45 caliber Hawken type rifle. Can anyone please tell me what type of bullets are suitable for this rifle as the twist will be faster than 1:66? What weight of bullets are used generally and also the charge weight? Can 230 grain /.452 or 265 grain /.44 (in) be used with paper patching? What about .416 and .375 calibre bullets (or can these only be done as a sabot)?
As the information is not readily available here in South Africa, I have ordered some books, but I just cant wait as I am too excited to be sent in the correct direction!!
Thanks for the info
Hein Greyling
Johannesburg
South Africa

 

[musketman]

Welcome Hein...

I think you are our first member from South Africa...

The .45 caliber has many projectiles to choose from, the determining factor will be "what are you going to be shooting with it"?

Large game will require a heavier bullet, thin skinned game will not...

The barrel should be rifled around 1-48 inch twist (1-121.92 centimeter) this will stablize the longer bullets being used...

In general, muzzleloading bullets do not require a patch, round balls do because the ball is under-sized for the bore, the patch makes up the difference and seals the gasses behind the projectile...

The muzzleloading bullet is usually cast a little over sized for the bore it is to be shot out of, this will cause the bullet to be engrave slightly by the riflings when loaded...

Once fired, the soft lead of the bullet will expand to seal the bore within one inch or so of travil down the barrel, a bullet lube is to be applied before loading to the bands around the circumference of the bullet...

There are loads of .45 caliber bullets to choose from:
T/C Maxi-ball... 230 grains
Lyman #454613... 265 grains
Lyman #454612... 300 grains
LEE REAL Bullet. 250 grains
Buffalo Bullets. 285 Grains, Hollow Point
The list goes on...

I am not going to recomend what load to use, because I have no clue what rifle you are going to buy (many companies make a .45 caliber Hawkin's type), some are stronger and can take a heavier charge, other will not...

Here is a few links to companies that sell muzzleloader bullets...

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

http://www.dixiegun.com/ (they ship internationally)

http://www.logcabinshop.com/index-2.html

 

Hein...the .452, I assuming this is a revolver or pistol bullet due to the weight and dia., you mentioned is already over bore diameter by .02 so that would be a "no"...ain't gonna work in a 45 ML.. As for paper patching a .416 bullet I don't know if you could get one short enough to stabilize in a ML, also, you're trying to pick up 0.34 in diameter and that's too much for paper. The 375 is definitely out unless you can find a sabot that will work. Just from reading your post it sounds as if you should consider a larger caliber. Not that there's anything wrong with a .45, it just sounds like you what a bigger hole in the barrel!

Vic

 

If you have access to Lyman equipment, the Great Plains rifles with 1 in 32' twists would be the best choice for a hunting rifle. This is a faster twist, used for elongated bullets, but due to it's being 1 in 32", won't shoot a really long bullet. For that, a faster, 20 to 22" twist should be used. The 32" twist will still shoot bullets up to around 350gr. very accurtely, and the heavy pistol bullets would be my first choice.
: The bullets will have to be cast from pure lead, without any alloys, and this will give the .452" bullet, a dia of about .451 out of a .45 cal pistol mould. This will have to be lubed with a Black Powder bullet lube & SPG, Lyman's Black Powder Lube are both really good ones. An even better one can be made from 60% Beeswax & 40% NeetsFootOil(not compound) or Vaseline.
: I'm not sure if Lyman makes this rifle in .45 or not, tho. I would not go with a 48" twist as we've found them not suitable for the larger game of British Columbia, Moose in particular. The twist is too slow to maintain bullet stability once it's inside the animal. It goes around the bones instead of beaking them and rarely goes in a straight line - this is NO GOOD.
: If the Choice is between a .50 or .54, most certainly go with the .50. There are more moulds for this one than .54.
: Lee makes a .50 mould at 450gr., as well as Lyman, and there is a 385gr. Holow base mould from Lee as well as REAL bullets to 320gr. The 450gr. bullets from Lyman or Lee will have to be sized down to .501 or .502 AFTER they are lubed. Failure to lube first will collapse the lube grouves. This post could be really long, but will stop here with the addage, with a 400 to 500 gr. bullet in the Lyman .50 Plains rifle, with from 80 to 110gr. 2F or 1F, I would take on everyting in SouthAfrica, up to but not including Cape Buffalo. For that, you really should have hardened bullet which won't shoot well in the muzzleloader. A good choice would be an original side by side rifle in 20 bore, or preferably larger for pure lead balls. In a bullet rifle, .50 would be OK in a double rifle as long as it could shoot heavy hardened bullets with 120gr. 2F or more.
: Hope this heals more than hinders.
: Daryl

 

Further to my previous post, I've just checked over the possiblities for bullets, and find several interesting ones.
: First of all, when shootng bullets in a Muzzleloader, the bullet has to be bore size, or just over by perhaps .001" & have grease gouves that will hold enough lube to allow sustained shooting without having to clean the barrel.
: Hornady sells what they call "Great Plains" Bullets that come pre-lubed with a white, pastey lube, that is sort-of sitting in knurled grouves. the amount is very little, probably not enough for 5 shots without having to clean the barrel. The T.C. MaxiBalls, sold separately in lots of 20, or you can purchase the mould to cast your own, have a shape that gives faily good penetration, but no expansion, normally. Those we've recovered from Moose, have't expanded, nor have they travelled in a straight line inside the animal due to the too-slow twist of 48". The Maxi-Hunter bullet, although I haven't used it, appears to be a much better bullet, as far as expansion is concerned, and has a much better shape, with 3 good grease grouves. Unfortunatley, the heaviest is 355gr. in .50 cal. This is a VERY LIGHT bullet in the .50 cal. & would be suitable for light plains game, not the heavier varieties of African plains game or even Wildebeast.
: The sabots normally shoot pistol bullets and at the velocities attainable from the ML rifles, usually don't give sufficient penetration for game larger than deer.
: In .54 cal, there are some good ones available, like the Lyman mould casting a 425gr. hollowbased bullet. The hollow based plunger should be turned down, either held in an electirc drill or in a lathe(handle removed) so the thickness of the bullet around the hollow is at least twice as thick as factory. This should get the weight up to 460gr., which I have shot lengthwise THROUGH a large mule deer, weight about 250 lbs. from a .54 Sharpes Percussion rifle. This bullet would have been sufficient for Moose or other 1,000lb.to 1,500lb. game. I wouldn't worry about having to shoot a grizzley with it as I'm certain with the weight and dia. it would kill quickly & griz normally only run 400 to 700 lbs. The problem with thin bases on hollowbased bulelts is they blow out with heavy hunting-type loads & a thick base is needed. I have done this to both .54 HB moulds as well as all of the .58 HB moulds, from the .575213OS to the massive 570gr. .57730. When thickened, that bullet came out just over 600gr. and worked very well in a fast twist Hawken with a custom fast twist barrel. It's 48" twist worked very well with this bullet in .58. Bullets in smaller calibres require a faster twist to maintain stability in animals. Becasue the mould's plunger is the same dia. as the bullet shank, I was able to convert the mould to a custom one, casting up to 750gr. bullets. These had SOME recoil in the 12lb. Hawken-(36" X 1 1/8" Oct. Bl.) using 150gr. 2F. These also penetrated like freight trains, completely lengthwise and exiting from a large bull moose. The expanded size was prety good, as the wound channel was a 2" dia. hole, lengthwise through the beast, bones smashed along the way, with a 2" exit hole.
: If you can find a Parker Hale 2band rifle, it will be perfect for your useage with up to 600gr. bullets.
Daryl

 

Daryl is most correct when he says "when shooting a bullet from a muzzleloader it must be bore size or slightly larger"...(paraphrased). The original question regarding the .452 bullet in your original post asked specifically about paper patching it. No...that won't work as you're adding diameter with the paper patching. The only references I've seen regarding paper patching and muzzleloaders is in Ned Roberts tremendous book....and for the life of me the title escapes my memory. "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rfile"?....is that right? (my library is still packed fellas.....ya oughta know this by now...hehehe). Anyway, from what I remember in Neds book and what I've observed from the guys who do paper patch muzzleloaders and what I've learned about paper patching cartridge firearms you aren't going to paper patch bullets in your conventional muzzleloader, not with any consistency. At least not paper patching as I understand the definition of the term.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Daryl when it comes to pistol bullets in sabots for anything larger than whitetail. Bullet weight simply is not present....which goes back to my original reply where I said maybe ya ought to look at a bigger hole in that barrel.......

Hey....when it's all said and done it's an incredibly wonderful journey filled with the gaining of knowledge...you do what YOU think should be done, put that into practice, learn from the experience and then pass on what knowledge you gained to us Yanks over here in the States. We'll be happy to reciprocate!!!

Vic

 

[Zonie]

As Musketman mentioned, it is difficult to give bullet recommendations without knowing what you wish to do with it.

I would suggest shying away from any bullet which is larger than the bore diameter of the rifle. In fact, I will go so far as to say that the projectile for a muzzle loading rifle should NEVER be larger than the bore size unless you want to have serious problems with loading.
The currently listed size for a muzzle loading rifle IS the bore size, not the groove size so a ".45 caliber" has a bore size of .450, a .50 caliber bore is .500 etc. This would make loading a ".45" caliber rifle virtually impossible with a .452 diameter pure lead bullet. One could pound it into the barrel but that would cause deformaties which would affect accuracy.
(Note that metal jacketed bullets are never mentioned with muzzleloaders unless a sabot is being used.)

In my opnion a elongated bullet should be made of pure lead and should be .001 to .002 under bore size. This results in a .45 caliber rifle using a .447-.448 dia bullet. This will greatly facilitate loading. A bullet such as this will expand the due to obturation during firing and will imbed itself into the rifling grooves.

The current muzzleloaders on the market with twist rates of 1:48 up thru 1:66 (inches) are designed for cloth patched round balls. They have rifling grooves which are .007 inch to .010 inch deep. This makes they unsuitable for any bullet which is not designed to be used with these deep grooves. There are several bullets available which are designed for use with these deep grooves if you choose to use them.
Paper patched bullets generally like the rifleing to be .003-.004 deep so this pretty much rules out their use in rifles with these deep grooves.
Currently there are muzzleloading rifles with faster twists (which are needed to stabilize long bullets). These twists usually range from 1:26 thru 1:38 although special muzzleloading barrels with twists as low as 1:18 are available (My Schuetzen .400 caliber with .003 deep grooves being one of them).
These "fast twist" barrels usually have shallow grooves in the .004-.006 depth range and are designed for use with sabots holding jacketed bullets.
If you choose a barrel with twists and grooves such as this, the possibility of using paper patched bullets can not be ruled out. For a .45 caliber rifle for instance, the bullet could be as small as .435 and be patched up to .447-.448 diameter.

Perhaps you could give us a better discription of what you wish to use the gun for. This would help greatly in giving you better answers.

 

[Hein]

Thanks for all the replies!! It is wonderful to know that this kind of help is out there!
I will mainly be using it for soft skinned annimals such as Impala and White Tail Deer size.
As I go along I will let you know of my progress!!

Best regards
Hein

 

[jrdavis]

Hein,
you said a 44 pistol bullet...the one that I am paper patching are .439 with a couple of turns of wetted typing paper they just fit in my 45's I also put a wax lube on the out side of the paper. I can only say try them when you get your gun. you may need a fiber wad between the powder and bullet.

 

[Dragwana]

Welcome Hein...

I think you are our first member from South Africa...

The .45 caliber has many projectiles to choose from, the determining factor will be "what are you going to be shooting with it"?

Large game will require a heavier bullet, thin skinned game will not...

The barrel should be rifled around 1-48 inch twist (1-121.92 centimeter) this will stablize the longer bullets being used...

In general, muzzleloading bullets do not require a patch, round balls do because the ball is under-sized for the bore, the patch makes up the difference and seals the gasses behind the projectile...

The muzzleloading bullet is usually cast a little over sized for the bore it is to be shot out of, this will cause the bullet to be engrave slightly by the riflings when loaded...

Once fired, the soft lead of the bullet will expand to seal the bore within one inch or so of travil down the barrel, a bullet lube is to be applied before loading to the bands around the circumference of the bullet...

There are loads of .45 caliber bullets to choose from:
T/C Maxi-ball... 230 grains
Lyman #454613... 265 grains
Lyman #454612... 300 grains
LEE REAL Bullet. 250 grains
Buffalo Bullets. 285 Grains, Hollow Point
The list goes on...

I am not going to recomend what load to use, because I have no clue what rifle you are going to buy (many companies make a .45 caliber Hawkin's type), some are stronger and can take a heavier charge, other will not...

Here is a few links to companies that sell muzzleloader bullets...

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

http://www.dixiegun.com/ (they ship internationally)

http://www.logcabinshop.com/index-2.html

I wonder if I could get some loading help here? I have a chiappa(armi sport) kentuckian in. 45, new, I also have two Lee r.e.a.l. bullet molds,200 and 250 gr,question is how much ffg of Swiss powder do I start with? And approximately what would near maximum be,(would rather not approach)??any help will be much appreciated,thank you!!

 

[Carbon 6]

Well, here's the Chiappa manual.

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/uploadimmagini/altrimanuali_documento_17.pdf

They say 40-50 and round ball.

 

[Dragwana]

Well, here's the Chiappa manual.

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/uploadimmagini/altrimanuali_documento_17.pdf

They say 40-50 and round ball.

 

[Dragwana]

Cheers for that,does that mean I can't use anything other than the 131gr ball??

 

[Rat]

Once, just out of boredom, I paper patched some 240 grain .429" bullets and shot them in a ML pistol. At 50 yards they printed about 20 foot high, and 15 foot to the left, knocking branches out of trees, and probably producing about a ten-foot group. Seriously.

Either of the REAL's should work well. Even with the slug, I can't see where 60 grains of Swiss would overload it. As far as I know, a 70 or 75 grain load in a .45 is normal.

 

[Rat]

Looking at the manual, I see that all the loads, for all the rifles, and rifles I am very familiar with, are super lawyer and lawsuit friendly. But 40-55 is certainly a great place to start, to find your best accuracy.

 

[Dragwana]

Once, just out of boredom, I paper patched some 240 grain .429" bullets and shot them in a ML pistol. At 50 yards they printed about 20 foot high, and 15 foot to the left, knocking branches out of trees, and probably producing about a ten-foot group. Seriously.

Either of the REAL's should work well. Even with the slug, I can't see where 60 grains of Swiss would overload it. As far as I know, a 70 or 75 grain load in a .45 is normal.

 

[tenngun]

A patched round ball will shoot as accurately as you can see. Nothing can be served by shooting paper with anything heavier.
For hunting a .45 ball will take most American deer. States that have elk and moose generally require a .50 or bigger. It won’t matter how much your bullet weighs.
Should you want to go after elk, or moose or some of the big mulies you might be better served with something bigger then a .45. Should white tail and similar sized or smaller deer and paper be your target ball will serve you well, and be a lot cheaper. And a .45 will serve for small game too.Tree rat, thumper, woodchuck, and such will present a head sized target that’s well within the accuracy of that ball.

 

[Dragwana]

Very useful information,thank you very much,i just thought I'd get more range from bullets,