What caliber is the flattest shooting?

[smoothshooter]

The furthest trail walk gong we have is 150 yards. It seems easier for me to hit it and the 100 than the 25. Eye sight :-(

Flattest shooter? Though all my research it was the 40 cal. I went with a 45 cal for hunting reasons.

MY 45 cal ball travels at 1633fps with a standard charge, and 74-5gr for a full charge (2040fps). via the Davenport formula.
The lesser charge is a flatter, close group load. the max load is the distance load.
At 150 yards the target is a 6 inch hole and the gong is behind it. The 25 yard target is a 1 inch vertical square piece of steel a foot long. Either one is not an easy target to hit.

What is a “standard charge”?

 

[LME]

The OP never states whether he is interested in shooting PRB or conicals, just that he wants to be able to shoot at 200 yards which in my opinion rules out the PRB due to all the factors brought up previously in this thread and my own experiences.

1874 Creedmoor match fired at 800, 900 and 1000 yards the Americans scored 934 with cartridge rifles, the Irish scored 931 with Rigby muzzleloaders.

All fired with no support (cross sticks etc.) using vernier rear and globe front sights, even though they lost by 3 points I would say those Irish muzzleloaders were pretty impressive.

Conicals are a completely different story. They help some with flattening the trajectory but you still will have a rainbow going to the target just not as bad as you would with a ball.

 

[swamperk]

hawkens 36 cal shooting 65 grains fffg pretty flat shooting, coyotes, cats don't stand a chance

 

[French Colonial]

Conicals are a completely different story. They help some with flattening the trajectory but you still will have a rainbow going to the target just not as bad as you would with a ball.

Agreed, and with vernier sights the Irish team regular shot to 1100 yards, the Creedmoor match in America was limited to 1000 because they did not have enough property to go to 1100

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Round balls simply are not long distance shooters. They lose velocity due to air resistance too fast. Even the heavier balls like 58, although a heavier ball resists wind deflection better. There is a point at which extra powder does negligible good. British ballistics experts discovered in the 1830's that longer bullets performed better then more powder and a round ball. Longer bullets tend to reduce the effect of air resistance, so while the same powder load might launch the bullet slower out at 120 yds the bullet has not lost nearly as high percentage of it's initial velocity as the round ball loses..

 

[Stykbow]

I hate to be that guy, but has anyone else noticed that the OP hasn’t made an appearance since the original post? His post here was his fifth which I believe is the minimum for posting an add in the classifieds.

 

[deerstalkert]

he be buying, not selling. so far.

 

[Bad Karma]

Was hopi

I hate to be that guy, but has anyone else noticed that the OP hasn’t made an appearance since the original post? His post here was his fifth which I believe is the minimum for posting an add in the classifieds.

you guys are intimida him, scared him in the face of all this wisdom… or whatever it is.

 

[Dude]

Any one that competes at mid and long range shooting with black powder and lead bullets knows the truth in the statement! You will never be consistent without learning to read and adjust for both wind and mirage ! It takes time, study and hundreds of shots in practice to develop the skill ! A few spectacular shots actually signifies very little because no matter how well you can hold and get the shot off correctly when the condition changes so must your aim !

Hey, we get it! You're an expert and know your sh*t. Very well done.

However, it's not very good form ripping up another member to communicate that.

Here's another fascinating article about trajectories and hitting power. A scientist claimed it was all bull that Billy Dixon hit an indian at 1500 yards. In one of the tests (to prove or disprove the story), they shot out to 3,000 yards and calculated the height of its trajectory at 4,000 feet. Not flat shooting! Not at all.

https://khall6548.wixsite.com/quigleyshootingassoc/how-far-will-a-sharps-rifle-shoot-m

 

[morehops52]

Your Q: about flat shooting and accuracy is a good one. There certainly rifles out there that will shoot accurately to 200 yards. "Flat" shooting is directly related to velocity. The less time in the air the less gravity has to work on it. If you could find a load that had enough power to zip it out there quickly it's unlikey to be that accurate in a rifle you would carry into the woods. Think pounding recoil.
Now the comes the ETHICAL Q; Should you attempt a shot at a game animal at that range? IMO based on 40 years of hunting with BP and watching other hunters shoot as well as observations at the range, my answer in NO! I would never take a shot at that range because it's more likely to end up with a wounded critter that a dead trophy. Consider trying to pick up a track on a wounded animal that far away.
My personal limit is about 60 yards with my 24" barrels and about 80 with my 32" barrel. Sight plays a big role and even with scopes I personally don't know anyone who could make those shots reliably with a ML. Just my 2 cents and probably worth less than that.
And on the Q: of ethics I truly wish the ML makers would quit advertising the long range capabilities of of their guns!

 

[Dude]

You need to research Joseph Whitworth, British Scientist/machinist from the mid 19th century. He was given the task of developing a rifle, even though he knew nothing about guns. Through his research and testing on his personal rifle range on his property, he developed one of the most accurate and expensive of the Civil War sniper rifles. It was nothing for a good shot to take out mules at a mile. Whitworth, in his ballistics research, discovered that the most accurate projectile was twice as long as the bore size. The common bore at that time was .58. What he settled on was a .45 caliber because doubling the length would give a projectile weight similar to a 58 round ball. The twist, I believe, was 1:20. The 45/70 was a direct descendent.

It is possible, with the right bullets, lube, and procedure to have a very accurate long distance rifle even with a 1:48 twist. It's been proven. In the hands of an experienced shooter, longer shots than 200 yards are possible, even though you think not. But that's not with round projectiles.

 

[1BadDart]

You need to research Joseph Whitworth, British Scientist/machinist from the mid 19th century. He was given the task of developing a rifle, even though he knew nothing about guns. Through his research and testing on his personal rifle range on his property, he developed one of the most accurate and expensive of the Civil War sniper rifles. It was nothing for a good shot to take out mules at a mile. Whitworth, in his ballistics research, discovered that the most accurate projectile was twice as long as the bore size. The common bore at that time was .58. What he settled on was a .45 caliber because doubling the length would give a projectile weight similar to a 58 round ball. The twist, I believe, was 1:20. The 45/70 was a direct descendent.

It is possible, with the right bullets, lube, and procedure to have a very accurate long distance rifle even with a 1:48 twist. It's been proven. In the hands of an experienced shooter, longer shots than 200 yards are possible, even though you think not. But that's not with round projectiles.

That's some fine shooting. I wonder what velocity they were pushing the bullets? Looking at ballistics calculator a 280 gr bullet with a G7 BC of .350 and a velocity of 2000 fps would only have 554 ft lbs of energy at 1 mile. The drop from a 500 yard zero would be 2248", 187 feet. At 4000 fps it would drop 455", 38 feet.

 

[S.Kenton]

The farthest I’ve ever even thought about shooting at a deer was around 150 yards. I say “ around” because my range finder gave me two different ranges.. one was 143 the other was 151..so anyhow. The shot was practiced for weeks, I knew the area well, it was in a low area, protected by trees. The only variable that I couldn’t control was the animal flinching. The buck was grazing, head down and had no idea I was there. It was a clean, perfect shot that I dont care to repeat. The old buck ran about 75 yards and piled up. I like to keep my hunting shots within 50-100 yards and preferably closer.

 

[Art Caputo]

I tested three of my rifles, loaded with PLRB’s to 100 yards, my typical maximum hunting range. Using my velocities that delivered the best accuracy with manageable(low recoil) powder charges I found that, with the exception of “energy” delivered to the target, there was little difference in accuracy with the higher “ballistic coefficient”” 58 cal LRB which delivers the lowest wind drift value…even at the lower muzzle velocity. TKO, in the chart is the Taylor Knock-Out value[(diameter x weight x velocity) / 7000] which IMO is a better representation of relative killing power on game. As to accuracy between the three calibers, IMO, precision is more of a function of the rifle characteristics then the ball size when it comes to hunting applications. My Kibler 58 cal Colonial happens to be a very accurate rifle, and my choice for 100+ yard med/big game hunting.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I often wonder how many of these “Fonts of Knowledge” are, in reality, “ArmChair Shooters”

 

[ResearchPress]

You need to research Joseph Whitworth, .... he developed one of the most accurate and expensive of the Civil War sniper rifles. It was nothing for a good shot to take out mules at a mile.

It was nothing but luck to take out mules at a mile. The grouping of the Whitworth rifle at that range would have been around 40ft.

Whitworth, in his ballistics research, discovered that the most accurate projectile was twice as long as the bore size. The common bore at that time was .58. What he settled on was a .45 caliber because doubling the length would give a projectile weight similar to a 58 round ball. The twist, I believe, was 1:20. The 45/70 was a direct descendent.

Whitworth's preference was for a length of bullet that was 3 diameters of the bore, and didn't believe that there was a bullet that will shoot well that is of less than 2.5 diameters long. The design criteria Whitworth had was restriction to the service charge of 70 grains with a 530 grain weight bullet (the service charge and Minie bullet used in the P.53 Enfield) - it was nothing to do with round ball.

It is possible, with the right bullets, lube, and procedure to have a very accurate long distance rifle even with a 1:48 twist. It's been proven. In the hands of an experienced shooter, longer shots than 200 yards are possible, even though you think not. But that's not with round projectiles.

I was shooting my 1 in 48 twist original Enfield in a match at 600 yards a couple of weeks or so ago (and won! ). In the 1860s NRA(UK) rifle matches were held at similar distances for .577 Enfields, and out to 1000 yards for other rifles.

This is of course in relation to target shooting - I don't hunt, so will leave discussion of that subject to those that do.

David

 

[M. De Land]

Hey, we get it! You're an expert and know your sh*t. Very well done.

However, it's not very good form ripping up another member to communicate that.

Here's another fascinating article about trajectories and hitting power. A scientist claimed it was all bull that Billy Dixon hit an indian at 1500 yards. In one of the tests (to prove or disprove the story), they shot out to 3,000 yards and calculated the height of its trajectory at 4,000 feet. Not flat shooting! Not at all.

https://khall6548.wixsite.com/quigleyshootingassoc/how-far-will-a-sharps-rifle-shoot-m

Your right, It could have been communicated with much better tact !

 

[52Bore]

More Velocity will improve/flatten trajectory.
The BC of the projectile will retain such velocity better over distance.
In a given diameter, longer bullet = more weight = better BC.
Within the BC calculation, bullet diameter has the greatest effect, then weight and nose shape.
EX: 2 bullets of different diameters with same shape and powder charge.
45cal 530gr (~1325 fps) has a BC of 0.38
40cal 425gr (~1600 fps) BC of 0.50

Given the same powder charge and diameter, the conical will overtake a RB in relatively short order.
For hunting, we are limited to our eyesight and shot placement is King.

 

[French Colonial]

In regards to the Billy Dixon shot, Mike Venturino duplicated the shot at the site where it originally took place and has written about it several times

 

[M. De Land]

It was nothing but luck to take out mules at a mile. The grouping of the Whitworth rifle at that range would have been around 40ft.


Whitworth's preference was for a length of bullet that was 3 diameters of the bore, and didn't believe that there was a bullet that will shoot well that is of less than 2.5 diameters long. The design criteria Whitworth had was restriction to the service charge of 70 grains with a 530 grain weight bullet (the service charge and Minie bullet used in the P.53 Enfield) - it was nothing to do with round ball.


I was shooting my 1 in 48 twist original Enfield in a match at 600 yards a couple of weeks or so ago (and won! ). In the 1860s NRA(UK) rifle matches were held at similar distances for .577 Enfields, and out to 1000 yards for other rifles.

This is of course in relation to target shooting - I don't hunt, so will leave discussion of that subject to those that do.

David

I shot midrange for ten years here in AK until it dried up and loved the game with bp cartridges. My best at 600 yards on a flat light, no wind evening was 99-4x which was a fluke of nature (hand of GOD) but usually I'd score in the mid to low 80's! When you have condition changes (most of the time) the scores will drop. The bullet was a 480 grain .45 cal Pointy # with a MV a bit over 1200 fps ( same as muzzle loaders).
I use this as a comparison because it was precisely the same dynamic as went on at Creedmoor against the Irish in 1874 who were using muzzle loaders.. The projectiles are very similar and often paper patched.