cwbyengraver
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I have been told its the burning powder at the front of the cylinder, but if the lead is so tight it shaves off a ring I dont see how that could be.
What causes a chain fire
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This is one of those topics that keeps coming up. We need a good concise chain fire FAQ stickied and locked.
In my opinion there are a few things that can cause a chain fire.
1. Loose fiting balls.
2. Improperly sealed chambers.
3. Loose caps.
If you have a ball that shaves lead when seated, grease the cylenders and use tight fiting nipples I can not see how a chain fire could happen.
Personaly I have had it happen only once and I can not be sure why. I did not properly grease the chambers and the caps were not a tight fit. The balls did however shave lead.
Since then I have always used tight caps and grease every chamber.
Haven't had a chain fire since. (that was over 20 years ago)
In my opinion there are a few things that can cause a chain fire.
1. Loose fiting balls.
2. Improperly sealed chambers.
3. Loose caps.
If you have a ball that shaves lead when seated, grease the cylenders and use tight fiting nipples I can not see how a chain fire could happen.
Personaly I have had it happen only once and I can not be sure why. I did not properly grease the chambers and the caps were not a tight fit. The balls did however shave lead.
Since then I have always used tight caps and grease every chamber.
Haven't had a chain fire since. (that was over 20 years ago)
I think the majority of chain fires originate at the nipple end of the cylinder, not at the cylinder front. YMMV.
Have only had one chain fire almost 40 years ago when new at this. Was an 1860 Colt .44 steel frame by Uberti. Loaded all six chambers and greased the balls. Pinched the caps quite a bit. Only caps I had. Fired and the top three chambers went off. No damage to the Uberti or me.
Following is a link to a good recent thread on chain fires:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...t/1180177/hl/chain+fire/fromsearch/1/#1180177
Have only had one chain fire almost 40 years ago when new at this. Was an 1860 Colt .44 steel frame by Uberti. Loaded all six chambers and greased the balls. Pinched the caps quite a bit. Only caps I had. Fired and the top three chambers went off. No damage to the Uberti or me.
Following is a link to a good recent thread on chain fires:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...t/1180177/hl/chain+fire/fromsearch/1/#1180177
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as said above, loose caps or improper ball size are the main cause. this means it can happen on either end of the chamber.
i dont buy into the lube over the ball theory though. if you use a ball that shaves a good solid ring on entry i dont see how its gonna let anything past. i personally do not use lube over the ball but to each his/her own.
i dont buy into the lube over the ball theory though. if you use a ball that shaves a good solid ring on entry i dont see how its gonna let anything past. i personally do not use lube over the ball but to each his/her own.
gunsports
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Below is a link to a high speed video of a cap lock rifle at the moment of firing. Notice the behavior of the hammer when the main charge ignites. It pushes the hammer back and allows a huge amount of burning gasses to escape from the nipple; blowing back into the cup of the hammer and deflecting sideways.
Now, this is a video of a cap lock rifle in as new condition with a new, uncorroded nipple and a gun loaded with the recommended charge. (I happen to know the owner of the gun and he was also the recorder of the video.)
I guess the same happens when a cap and ball revolver is fired. Depending on the charge and the main spring resistance; this same sequence of events could (would?) also occur with the revolver. So, even if caps are properly fitted, if the hammer moves back far enough, nipple gas can be directed sideways; and can actually unseat the cap on the adjoining cylinder and ignite the powder charge. Or, it cn migrate in under the cap, igniting both cap and main charge.
(This video was recorded at 4500 frames per second)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6KWxuYv4k4&list=UUUUiE_Foh02j0l2kkAUMSWw&index=6&feature=plcp
Now, this is a video of a cap lock rifle in as new condition with a new, uncorroded nipple and a gun loaded with the recommended charge. (I happen to know the owner of the gun and he was also the recorder of the video.)
I guess the same happens when a cap and ball revolver is fired. Depending on the charge and the main spring resistance; this same sequence of events could (would?) also occur with the revolver. So, even if caps are properly fitted, if the hammer moves back far enough, nipple gas can be directed sideways; and can actually unseat the cap on the adjoining cylinder and ignite the powder charge. Or, it cn migrate in under the cap, igniting both cap and main charge.
(This video was recorded at 4500 frames per second)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6KWxuYv4k4&list=UUUUiE_Foh02j0l2kkAUMSWw&index=6&feature=plcp
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Improperly loaded cylinders, wrong size caps, wrong size balls, worn out nipples etc....
Interesting video. I can see where that could happen on a revolver given the right circumstances. Thanks for sharing. I have never experienced a chain fire and after reading the posts on this site am double careful and hope it never happens to me.
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
Many Klatch
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I had one the other day in my Pieta 1858 Remington. I had run out of .458 ball and was using some .451 ball I got a very thin to non-existent ring of lead when loading. The nipples had all been replaced with new stainless steel ones so I am confident that those were good. I had run out of wads and was just trying to get one more cylinder full off before packing it up for the day.
So there were at least two or three reasons why I got a chain fire, four if you count being stupid
.
1) wrong size ball 2) nothing over the powder, wad or cornmeal 3) no grease over the ball.
The chain fire was extra loud,sort of a boom - pop, and the gun jumped a bit more than usual. A chain fire is not the end of the world but does get your attention :shocked2: .
Many Klatch
So there were at least two or three reasons why I got a chain fire, four if you count being stupid
.1) wrong size ball 2) nothing over the powder, wad or cornmeal 3) no grease over the ball.
The chain fire was extra loud,sort of a boom - pop, and the gun jumped a bit more than usual. A chain fire is not the end of the world but does get your attention :shocked2: .
Many Klatch
Excellent piece of video.
The Pedersoli is not a RB rifle. This is a Longrange ML shooting a slug that likely weighs 450-500 grains with 80gr or more powder.
For obvious reasons steel nipples do not last long. Some stainless nipples will. Many people now as in the past that shoot slug guns use Platinum lined nipples.
You will not see this level of leakage with a properly made RB gun with a good lock and a proper nipple. The shooter likely hears or feels the "click" when the hammer falls back on the nipple. Forsythe talks (1840-50s) of a hammer blowing back and "smashing" internals in a lock due to its miserable design. Being in India he had to travel to get it fixed.
This was all well known back in the day and locks, the good ones, and the breeches on the better guns were engineered to reduce, eliminate this.
This is a wonderful example of why I talk about pressure problems with the various bullets some folks love so much. The factory mades invariably have poorly designed to setup locks and generally poor breech designs. So we ended up with vented nipples so the lock would not be blown the 1/2 or full cock.
It also illustrates why the external design of the breech is important for protecting the shooter from flash and fragments. Something the factory mades and many customs rate fair to poor in compared to patent breech guns made back in the day. The English had this well figured out by 1830. Shows one of the reasons I don't like Drum and Nipple guns.
Dan
The Pedersoli is not a RB rifle. This is a Longrange ML shooting a slug that likely weighs 450-500 grains with 80gr or more powder.
For obvious reasons steel nipples do not last long. Some stainless nipples will. Many people now as in the past that shoot slug guns use Platinum lined nipples.
You will not see this level of leakage with a properly made RB gun with a good lock and a proper nipple. The shooter likely hears or feels the "click" when the hammer falls back on the nipple. Forsythe talks (1840-50s) of a hammer blowing back and "smashing" internals in a lock due to its miserable design. Being in India he had to travel to get it fixed.
This was all well known back in the day and locks, the good ones, and the breeches on the better guns were engineered to reduce, eliminate this.
This is a wonderful example of why I talk about pressure problems with the various bullets some folks love so much. The factory mades invariably have poorly designed to setup locks and generally poor breech designs. So we ended up with vented nipples so the lock would not be blown the 1/2 or full cock.
It also illustrates why the external design of the breech is important for protecting the shooter from flash and fragments. Something the factory mades and many customs rate fair to poor in compared to patent breech guns made back in the day. The English had this well figured out by 1830. Shows one of the reasons I don't like Drum and Nipple guns.
Dan
I have and shoot 2 remington 44's and I have been lucky to not have a chain fire. I use 25 grains of 3f with a felt pad between the powder and 451's then I seal the cylinder with wax and grease mixture and the caps are tight fitting. I have seen chain fires before and the shooter had loose caps and nothing to seal the cylinder and had 50 grains of 3f. 1st shot caused 4 caps to fall off he fired 2nd shot and the other 4 chambers lit off and runed the frame and spooked him. Luckly no one was hurt but more care was given to revolvers and revolving rifles on the line after that.
Inaddition to what causes a chain firing, one issue is: has anyone had a chain firing while using a wad over the powder and under the ball? From what I have been reading so far- that doesn't seem to be the case. If the caps are loose and fall off- then even with wads a chain firing could occur but it seems to me that the wads offer a lot of protection. I'm wondering if- at the chamber end, the issue of shaving a ring of lead, grease over the ball, and wads- of those three, maybe using wads is the best thing. That is, with wads if you don't grease the end, and if there isn't a ring of lead from the ball- the wads may still be enough to prevent a chain firing.
Many Klatch
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On my last chain fire (sounds bad doesn't it :redface: ) I had enough wonderwads to shoot a cylinder or two with the slightly undersized ball. When I tried one more cylinder full with the same sized ball I had a chain fire. So I am fully in the camp that a wonderwad or cornmeal or some other filler will make a chain fire less likely.
Many Klatch
Many Klatch
ditch those .451 round balls and only use the .454 as they will give a better seal
you'd think that .003 wouldn't make much of a differance but it does
you'd think that .003 wouldn't make much of a differance but it does
Many Klatch said:I had one the other day in my Pieta 1858 Remington. I had run out of .458 ball and was using some .451 ball I got a very thin to non-existent ring of lead when loading. The nipples had all been replaced with new stainless steel ones so I am confident that those were good. I had run out of wads and was just trying to get one more cylinder full off before packing it up for the day.
So there were at least two or three reasons why I got a chain fire, four if you count being stupid
1) wrong size ball 2) nothing over the powder, wad or cornmeal 3) no grease over the ball.
The chain fire was extra loud,sort of a boom - pop, and the gun jumped a bit more than usual. A chain fire is not the end of the world but does get your attention :shocked2: .
Many Klatch
I started shooting C&B revolvers about 1966 or so. I have never had a chain fire and started shooting long before the "wonder wads" were dreamed up. Also I use the things for purposes other than shooting holes in paper and wanted the full powder charge.
Use the right sized balls, use a grease over them and the right sized caps and they are very reliable. Skip one of these, especially the ball or cap fitment and there may be "issues".
Dan
The other thing about NOT getting the ring of lead is the notion that a loose ball may actually move forward during recoil and expose the powder. Years ago I taped a TV series "The Gun" which I was watching last night and they filmed a chain firing and on that one, the faulty cylinders didn't all go off at the same time, there were slight gaps in each of the wrong cylinders firing.
PepperBoxes were notorious for chain firing and since it is a long way down each bore to the powder charge- on a peppper box such events would most likely be at the cap/nipple end.
Back when I used grease rather than wads I always used Crisco. Is there a better grease that some of you are using? I agree about the heavier powder charge if you don't use wads and in any situation were maximum charges are desired then grease is the way to go however in a hot weather environment you need a grease that stays solid.
PepperBoxes were notorious for chain firing and since it is a long way down each bore to the powder charge- on a peppper box such events would most likely be at the cap/nipple end.
Back when I used grease rather than wads I always used Crisco. Is there a better grease that some of you are using? I agree about the heavier powder charge if you don't use wads and in any situation were maximum charges are desired then grease is the way to go however in a hot weather environment you need a grease that stays solid.
Blizzard of '93
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crisco or lard mixed 50/50 with beeswax will not blow out and still soft enough to smear over the ball.
I now shoot mostly Lee mold slugs which have the reduced heel and lube rings I dip them in this mixture - no problems with leading at max charges.
I now shoot mostly Lee mold slugs which have the reduced heel and lube rings I dip them in this mixture - no problems with leading at max charges.
The very first Colt revolver had a metal shield around the nipple area of the cylinder leaving the top nipple and cap exposed to the world for the hammer to hit.
The result was many chain fires which caused Colt to eliminate the shield, leaving the nipples/caps exposed.
Going one step further, Colt created and Patented the pockets in the cylinder for the nipples.
This shielded the nipples from the blast of the firing chamber and it was a feature that was present on all of the Paterson Colts and all of the subsequent C&B revolvers ever made by Colt.
(As a side note, Ole' sneaky Colt's Patent wasn't just for the pocket idea. He patented the whole idea of using any kind of "dam" between the nipples to prevent chain fires.
I'm sure if Colt wasn't convinced that chain firing was due to flames entering the adjacent chambers thru the nipples, he wouldn't have thought to prevent it and then Patent the whole idea.
The result was many chain fires which caused Colt to eliminate the shield, leaving the nipples/caps exposed.
Going one step further, Colt created and Patented the pockets in the cylinder for the nipples.
This shielded the nipples from the blast of the firing chamber and it was a feature that was present on all of the Paterson Colts and all of the subsequent C&B revolvers ever made by Colt.
(As a side note, Ole' sneaky Colt's Patent wasn't just for the pocket idea. He patented the whole idea of using any kind of "dam" between the nipples to prevent chain fires.
I'm sure if Colt wasn't convinced that chain firing was due to flames entering the adjacent chambers thru the nipples, he wouldn't have thought to prevent it and then Patent the whole idea.
Thank you for the information.
I know that for a while, Colt did use the chamfered cylinders on his pistols but then stopped doing this.
Whether he changed his mind or it was a cost cutting move, I do not know.
I know that for a while, Colt did use the chamfered cylinders on his pistols but then stopped doing this.
Whether he changed his mind or it was a cost cutting move, I do not know.
