what constitutes a pc smoothbore?

[recycle33952]

In support of everyone I am looking to add 1 period correct smooth bore to by bp array. Of which models mass produced like pedersoli fall into period correct and resonably depicted? I yet am not ready to leap to a custom jobber.

I have added 18 bp charcoal burners to the gun room since I first came to this forum 2 mos ago and I am ready to make the step to pc.

I am budgeting $1000 topps for this gun

 

[rich pierce]

If you've got 18 black powder guns you are definitely ready for a custom one. You just haven't made up your mind yet! Sell of 6 or 8 of them and get a good custom gun. Just my thoughts!

 

[recycle33952]

sell my children? how dare you!!
good point money aint a issue im just cheep cheep
and most those customs I seen are 3grand on up

 

[Mike Brooks]

most those customs I seen are 3grand on up

Yo can get one helluva gun for less than 3 grand from just about every custom gun maker I know of. Where are you seeing these guns and prices at?

 

[tg]

I would look at Noeth Star West either Early English or NW gun, they are pretty good in the authenticity department, French guns that are correct are hard to come by and you would have to commision one to proper speccs and I don't think a grand would cover it, most smoothies in your price range may be questionable as to PC so do your home work and trust the research not the vendor.You could find a parts set for 700 or less and put it together yourself if you were so inclined, this is the best way to get an authentic gun at a good price if you are able to go that direction.

 

[AZ-Robert]

I have added 18 bp charcoal burners to the gun room since I first came to this forum 2 mos ago...

And I thought I had a bad case of the flint-fever! :hatsoff:

Where are you seeing these guns and prices at?

Track of the Wolf has some mighty pricey guns... about half the smoothies currently listed are $2k or more.

 

[onefeather]

mike i think you said in another post that the nw trade gun was an 1790s gun right?is that the earliest known or just earliest documented? thanks again :thumbsup:

 

[tg]

"Track of the Wolf has some mighty pricey guns... about half the smoothies currently listed are $2k or more."

Take a close look at many of those guns and you will find barrel/furniture finish not PC to the period, locks that are incorrect,and many details that are unsupported by the originals and while they are beautiful pieces many do not fit the HC {if that is of importance}factor as well as some of the cheaper offerings around

 

[Mike Brooks]

mike i think you said in another post that the nw trade gun was an 1790s gun right?is that the earliest known or just earliest documented? thanks again :thumbsup:

That's about the earliest that any of the kits or "classic" north west guns with the two fingered trigger guard bow on today's market will go.
There were guns around earlier than that that were refered to as "North West Guns" but we have no evidence what they looked like.
Tom Patton has come up with some documentation of a dug up gun that has the classic scaley serpent side plate and a sitting fox stamp on the lock that has a 1762 date on the tail of the lock. But, the triggerguard doesn't have the two fingered bow. Early period NW guns weren't the same as later period NW guns. Similar, but not the same.

 

[tg]

The earliest reference to the NW gun is 1761, there is nothning to suggest that it looks like what is now offered as a NW gun which is of a much later pattern, they probably had the large trigger bow as it is first mentioned in 1740, but once again the guns themselves may have looked much more like the Caroliona guns than the later period 1790-1830) NW guns now offered. the above dates are from Hamiltons "Indian Trade Guns....BTW I know i'm not Mike I but tossed this in anyway...

 

[Tommy Bruce]

Ok I should probably start another thread on this one but since we're on the subject. Mike, Tom, TG, Rich anyone I've missed please chime in on this one. Caywood and Northstar West makes an early English gun similer in shape to the French gun, I was curious about the authenticity of these guns and if they woud fit the earlier time period? I've also noticed that Larry Williams is offering a type G as well. As far as a custom smoothie what do you guys think of some of the offerings by Jim Chambers? Thanks

 

[Mike Brooks]

Youre just as much or more qualified to chat about early trade guns as i am tg. :thumbsup: This is a hard group of guns to sort out.
I havn't seen any evidence the pre 1790 NW guns had the two finger bow. Of course I'd like to be pointed in the right direction if you have information otherwise. :thumbsup:

 

[rudy parnell]

This is a very interesting post TG. I am wondering where do you figure that the first nw guns were made and since this is I believe near the end of the F&I War that you identify as the intro of the nw gun...what is the application for this new consumer driven offering. I am not clear on what guns were being used prior also...Read that Washington and Braddock and John Forbes suffered early defeats across the frontier leading into the Ohio Valley. And that life was dangerous and bloody for colonists removed to the west of the more established towns and settlements[that is west of Pittsburg and parallel to the Eastern Seaboard]. There were gun toters from Virginia,Pennsylvania, Royal Americans from Philadelphia, and Scotish Highlanders from England. Well by now you have probably figured out that I have enough information to only reveal my lack of a grasp of what was happening about 1755. If you would shed a light on the guns being used and where they maybe came from...I'd appreciate it. And I figure that the French had there own stuff along with the trade guns that they shucked out to the Iroquois. Thanks.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Ok I should probably start another thread on this one but since we're on the subject. Mike, Tom, TG, Rich anyone I've missed please chime in on this one. Caywood and Northstar West makes an early English gun similer in shape to the French gun, I was curious about the authenticity of these guns and if they woud fit the earlier time period? I've also noticed that Larry Williams is offering a type G as well. As far as a custom smoothie what do you guys think of some of the offerings by Jim Chambers? Thanks

Caywood is copying the "O'Conner Gun" which I really don't know what to make of. It's definately an english manufatured gun, but has a french styled buttplate and buttstock. A real puzzler for sure. I suspect it may be some sort of "chief's grade" gun. There is evidence it's not a "one off" type of thing as there have been other buttplate fragments turn up in digs. I believe this pattern turned up after the F&I war was over, or there abouts. possibly they started this pattern because the indians were partial to the french style and didn't care for the english style? beats me? Many possibilities I guesss, and know way to really know for sure.
Oh, and let me try and stay out of trouble by saying, Caywood's gun is a fine gun and there is possibly none better made in the entire world...etc...... (I don't want to start another exchange over the superiority of one makers guns over another)
I've not seen north star wests gun, But I'm sure it's just as great if not greater than Caywoods....uh....or maybe not..er....how does a guy stay out of trouble in a situation like this? :shake: :rotf:
Oh, Chambers puts out the cadillac of kits in my opinion, I've built many of them. They are surpassed only by my kit offerings...that's just my opinion of course. :winking: :haha:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I've always figured the NW guns evolved from the Carolina or "Type G guns". They were all made by the same english makers, just sold to different customers. I believe the NW guns just evolved to fill a certain nich in the great lakes area and northwards, especially after the dastardly French were defeated.
When exactly these split off from the carolina style to the full blow NW style seems to be somewhat of a mystery, at least to me.
I find it interesting the french were selling mostly brass mounted guns in the south and more iron mounted guns in the north. Maybe the english had come to the same conclusion as the carolina gun had a brass trigger guard and the NW gun had an iron trigger guard. maybe this is where the split off or the evolution from the carolina gun took place.
Tom Patton and I have been have a running conversation on the phone about these guns for weeks. It's been interesting to say the least. :thumbsup:
And, I'd like to add, I'm not sure you'd have seen a NW gun in the south early on, I think these things may have been targeted to a specific northern market early on. Now, after 1790 or so you see the "classic" NW gun sold and used every where. I'm thinking by that time the low grade carolina guns were completly phased out and replaced by the NW gun that had by that time become the "universal" trade gun.
Or, I might be full of crapola too...... :haha:

 

[AZ-Robert]

Hey Tommy, check out this thread. [url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/170236/post/173194[/url]

 

[tg]

In the 1740 Hudson Bay minutes to all gunmakers they are instructed to make the guards larger than normal,this is circumstancial evidence of when the large bow was introduced. in 1761 order for guns with barrels bore the sdame as the NW guns are recorded.( pg 6-7 Indian Trade Guns) once again these early guns probaly did not have the architecture of the ones we see offered now and may have looked more like the "Carolina" type.

 

[onefeather]

ok.im not the smartest about guns yet but here me out.the carolinia type is like the nw trade gun that north star west offers right.when was the carolinia type introduced?i am relly thinking of getting one cause since i first got into this i have always been drawn to them.im still gonna get it.i would just like to know the history behind them. :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

ok.im not the smartest about guns yet but here me out.the carolinia type is like the nw trade gun that north star west offers right.when was the carolinia type introduced?i am relly thinking of getting one cause since i first got into this i have always been drawn to them.im still gonna get it.i would just like to know the history behind them. :grin:

here's the gun you're talking about?
NW TRADE GUN
That gun won't go earlier than 1790 in my opinion. This is the "Classic Noirth west gun of the 1800's tah was taded all across the north american continent. If I were the PC police at a Rev. war or earlier event, I wouldn't let you carry that gun.
You aren't going to be able to use that gun and be Period correct for anything other than 1800's fur trade era events.
The Carolina gun or "Type G" was probably introduced in the 1720's or so.

Their early English gun is a far better choice for a pre 1800 time period. get the longest barrel they offer.
EARLY ENGLISH

 

[Mike Brooks]

In the 1740 Hudson Bay minutes to all gunmakers they are instructed to make the guards larger than normal,this is circumstancial evidence of when the large bow was introduced

Yes, I've read that too. but the archeological evidence doesn't show these types of guards at that early of time period. It could be these guards were made of iron that was made so thin they have completly rusted away? My best guess anyway. :winking: