I've read all the posts and they were very informative.I agree that the origin of these North West guns is rather murky.I suggest that those interested in these guns consider two publications by S.James Gooding. The first is an article by him in"The Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting" Vol.13 No. 3, "Trade Guns of The Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1700 which was later expanded into his recent book,of the same title published in 2003.He makes a strong case for the proposition that the North West Gun derives from the Hudson's Bay guns although to date there are apparently no known 17th century HBCo specimens known. He does show a very early gun with an "English" lock with what appear to be Snaphaunce internals and a dog catch.The gun has no HBCo markings but it is marked on the inside of the lock plate with what was probably a crown over the initials "EI". The markings have not been positively identified but these are the initials of Edward Ireland who was one of the gunsmiths when "snaphans" muskets were ordered in 1674.,Gooding P.38
On PP 54-57 he illustrates and describes the earliest NW gun known to him,.The gun is restocked{ Ca.mid 18th century}but was made and signed "Williams"either John { first HBC contract 1715,d.1731 widow Elizabeth contract Ca.1735} or his son Thomas{ first HBC contract 1738 d.1738 His widow Ann continued the business but her last contract was in 1735.The gun is typically North West in mountings with mixed iron and brass.The guard is the large type and the lock plate is flat.The 48" barrel in addition to the early tombstone fox is marked with the view and proof marks of the London Gunmakers'Company and the maker's mark of Richard Wilson whose proof piece was presented and his mark granted in 1730.Each of these features suggest a a contract date between 1741 and 1745 when Ann Williams was running the business.The anomaly is the present side plate {one half scaled serpent}which Gooding suspected would have been used after 1750 and which was probably installed when the gun was restocked and the third lock bolt eliminated.
Gooding also partially illustrates {P.56} but does not describe a gun in the Museum of the Fur Trade collection which has a long thin wrist, a standard size guard,,scaled serpent side plate,and a three screw round face lock.The name Richard Wilson is engraved on the tail of the lock with his name and the date "51'{1751} and stamped in front of the cock with the early tombstone fox.Then there is the Rock Island{Lake Michigan}site gun found in burial No. 4.This is a complete gun signed Wilson on the lock along with "a small animal in cartouche"and dated 62{1762}. The gun has mixed iron and brass furniture.The side plate, butt piece, and ferrules are brass and the rest is iron. The barrel is octagon to round 41 5/8" long.The lock is a three screw version and the guard is fairly large but it has been bent and this makes it difficult to determine the size.The butt piece has 9 square punched attachment holes and has been fastened to the stock by means of square-sectioned iron pegs.The entire barrel,guard, and lock were heavily painted or dusted with vermillion.This is the gun to which Mike referred.
Here we have three guns of the type generally considered to be North West guns ranging in date from Ca.1741-45 to 1751 and 1762.We also have a possible Hudson's Bay Company gun from possibly Ca.1674 or a time difference of about 67 years at the least.We are getting closer to the answer as to when the North West gun appears in it's fully developed form.Now let's keep digging and in the meantime,I heartily recommend Jim's books on these guns.
Tom Patton :thumbsup: :hatsoff: :hmm:
