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What dates for Kentucky rifle?

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Electric Miner

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Were caplock Kentucky rifles historically accurate? If so, what time period would they have been used during?


How about the Pennsylvania rifle?
 
Yes, I have, and it's standard wikipedia. The only date that is mentioned is a rather vague ending date of c. 1850.

I'm looking for something a little more than that. At what point would a percussion Kentucky rifle be out of place? At what point would a Pennsylvania rifle be out of place?
 
I guess I am not understanding your question.

Thousands of trees have been killed and millions of electrons have been inconvienced on just the question of "What is the difference between a Pennsylvania and a Kentucky Rifle"

Now answering what I think your question is, just from a Buckskinning/Rendevous/Shooting match point of view, any PA or KY rifle with a caplock is accepted pretty much anyplace there are matches.....
 
You're still not getting my question.

I'm not asking about today and rendezvous. I am asking about actual history. At what point in actual history did the long rifle, be it Pennsylvania or Kentucky, get supplanted, by and large, by something else? At what point in actual history would carrying a long rifle get you raised eyebrows from those around you?
 
You're searching for a simple answer to a fairly complicated question since as Luke noted in some places and amongst certain groups muzzleloading long rifles of various types never went out of style, be they percussion or flint lock.

Henry Leman who started making long rifles in the 1830's was still making them and selling them into the 1880's. Both his Leman guns as well as his cheaper line sold under the name Conestoga Rifles Works were being sold at least as late as 1885. Leman refused to make breech loaders according to his biographers - he passed on in 1887.
in 1885, the Jos. C. Grubb catalogue for that year included "Half stock Leman rifles with and without a patch box,, with extra prices on bores smaller than 150 and barrels over 42 inches long."
The same catalog notes the price differences
his regular rifles are listed in a price range from $10.25 to $11.25, while the Conestoga rifles sold for $7.75 to $9.50, the full stock with a patch box being cheaper than a half stock with a patch box.

J. P Gemmer who bought the Hawken shop in the 1860's continued to make at least a few caplock Hawken style mountain rifles at times up until the 1890's - the shop closed in 1915.

While not rifles, the Hudson Bay Company continued to sell smoothbore flint lock trade guns until the late 1930's with some stock remaining into the late 1940's.

Last but not least I learned to shoot cap lock muzzleloaders from my Great Uncle in 1961. A Marine veteran of WW1, he refused to own a cartridge rifle or shotgun - he had seen to much death and destruction wrought by "modern" weapons at Belleau Wood and other battles and swore he would never pick up another "modern" gun in his life.
He also felt he needed nothing more than his pride and joy, a late (1880's) New York built gun with a replacement barrel in 45 caliber made by the great Harry Pope. His only other gun was an 1870's double hammer 12 bore muzzleloader. He filled his larder each year until his death in the late 1960's with those two guns. He also refused to have indoor toilets, considering them unsanitary. After about 1962 he did have a flush toilet, but it was in the old outhouse 75' from the main house and the only reason he had it installed was the county regs which had "outlawed" standard out houses.

In general though muzzleloaders were considered old fashioned in most areas by the 1880's, but still thousands of muzzleloading rifles, cap lock revolvers, and shotguns were around for much longer than that.
 
With few exceptions, the Kentucky Rifle is a Pennsylvania Rifle.
Almost all "Kentucky Rifles" were made in Pennsylvania.

The "Kentucky" nickname became popular following the war of 1812 where it was mentioned several times in a popular song commemorating the victory at New Orleans.

The Percussion cap as we know it started to become popular after 1814. It really started to catch on following the early 1820's and by the 1830's it was quite common.

The Kentucky (or Pennsylvania) rifles of the time was often built using the caplock system after 1830 but because old ways aren't easily changed the flintlock is also found on some of these guns up to (and even following) the Civil War in the 1860's.
 
some good info posted here, thanks all!

for the wikipedia article... it made the longrifle out be a little more then it really is. claiming the effective range of the longrifle to be 300+ yards is a stretch.. i suppose if there was no wind and you had time to fire a bunch of shots you might be able to hit a man at 300 yards. im not saying its impossible just really really difficult and unlikely. (edit: this statement is made assuming the rifle is firing a patched ball)

-Matt
 
Matt - the effective range of any firearm is not necessarily the normal usage range - i.e. a box of 22 LR for instance warns of danger out to a mile - not the normal range by any means.

As for shooting at 300 yards and needing several shots and no wind - sorry but I know lots of folks who regularly shoot (targets) with muzzle loading round ball rifles at that range and do not need several shots - yep wind can play havoc but it does with any gun - it's all in the matter of practice.

I've shot mine out to 500 yards and only needed a spotter or two at most to get on target.
Would I hunt at those ranges? nope, but then again I wouldn't even with a good center fire, but that doesn't mean others can't regularly hit a man size target at long ranges - our military snipers regularly do it with standard center fire cartridges out to 1,000 yards and specialty rifles out to 2,000 yards plus.
During the latter half of the 19th Century there was a lot of long range target shooting out to 1,000 yards - yep they used special express type rifles and conicals, but they were still basically a long rifle.
 
From what I've learned over the years the moniker "Kentucky rifle" - after the war of 1812 - was the informal name given to just about any longrifle regardless where it was built. Sometimes in the later 1820s some flintlocks were cobbled to fire percussion caps. Within a few years many were being built solely as caplocks. That pretty much was the end of the "Golden age longrifle". Even well into the 19th century some shooters still preferred flint. Basically the rifle never truly died. Most all the old builders were dead but some had trained apprentices who kept the gun alive. By the 1960s imports had started up the interest in the old muzzleloaders. Combine that with Fess Parker as David Crockett and we sailed through to the present (second) Golden Age. Custom and high quality replicas took hold and highly skilled builders multiplied. We are soooo lucky, nowadays. Basically if you want it you can get it.

Military muzzleloaders became popular during that time. Most were imports with quality ranging from poor to excellent. This was partly fueled by the reenactment crowd.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it. :idunno:
 
Electric Miner)I'm looking for something a little more than that. At what point would a percussion Kentucky rifle be out of place? At what point would a (percussion) Pennsylvania rifle be out of place?[/quote said:
I don't know but I think maybe Pennsylvania rifles had percussion locks for some time before the new technology reached the backwoods. Also... backwoods folk are reluctant to change. Exact dates? I have no clue.
 
Zonie said:
The "Kentucky" nickname became popular following the war of 1812 where it was mentioned several times in a popular song commemorating the victory at New Orleans.
The song commemorated the victory at the battle of New Orleans in January, 1815, but it wasn't written until 1821.

Spence
 
LaBonte said:
Matt - the effective range of any firearm is not necessarily the normal usage range - i.e. a box of 22 LR for instance warns of danger out to a mile - not the normal range by any means.

As for shooting at 300 yards and needing several shots and no wind - sorry but I know lots of folks who regularly shoot (targets) with muzzle loading round ball rifles at that range and do not need several shots - yep wind can play havoc but it does with any gun - it's all in the matter of practice.

I've shot mine out to 500 yards and only needed a spotter or two at most to get on target.
Would I hunt at those ranges? nope, but then again I wouldn't even with a good center fire, but that doesn't mean others can't regularly hit a man size target at long ranges - our military snipers regularly do it with standard center fire cartridges out to 1,000 yards and specialty rifles out to 2,000 yards plus.
During the latter half of the 19th Century there was a lot of long range target shooting out to 1,000 yards - yep they used special express type rifles and conicals, but they were still basically a long rifle.

i didnt say a 300 yard shot was impossible just difficult and unlikely. if you can make a 500 yard shot with a 40-45 cal ball (average longrifle cal) then i need to shake your hand!

-matt
 
Matt - long shots with a RB gun in a decent caliber (45 and above) are not that unusual or hard with practice - there are lots of references to over 200 yard shots out west in the period documentation - while some and maybe even many were maybe exaggerations there are plenty which note they were paced off. The Hawken shop also guaranteed their rifles out to 200 yards.

As for the 500 yard shots I've made - never said 40-45 cal RB - they were made with 50 and 54 which a lot of KY/Pa rifles were, especially out west in the early 1800's...on the other hand I did once own an 1850's Rigby express rifle in 45 that was plenty accurate out to 5-600 yards but that was with a period conical built for the rifle. And again it does take practice lots of it, but it's not as hard as you seem to think...but then again I've been shooting long rifles since 1961 and for many years they were my only guns.
 
The Philadelphia rifle presented to David Crockett in 1834, by the Young Whigs, was a half stocked percussion. This was Pretty Betsy. When Crockett came to Texas in 1835, he left this rifle behind, preferring the familiarity and reliability of the flintlock. The frontiersman had to become comfortable with the availability of the percussion cap before the general acceptance of the new gun.
 
The Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle came into being around the French & Indian war period. The flintlock stocked version was gradual replaced by the caplock stocked version beginning around the 1820's. The flintlock version never really died out. Just fewer and fewer were made. A good number were converted to caplock. Alvin York honed his shooting skills with a old muzzleloading longrifle. People whose lives depended on their guns usually went with the latest version/update available for their weapon, although there were exceptions just like with everything else.
 

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