What granulation?

[jtmattison]

I know this subject has been raised before but what powder granulation do you prefer for varied calibers?
I've read a lot about "recommended" granulations. 1f for cannons and large smoothbore rifles, 2f for say .50-.62, 3f for .45 and below, 4f or 5f for flinter priming.
I've also read a lot on this forum of folks using 3f a lot in there .54's.
I use 3f in my .54 on the range with light loads.
Looking in Lymans loading manual I see no real advantage to using 3f over 2f. 3f produces LOTS more pressure than 2f with not any real velocity or energy gain.
So what I am looking for here is your personal opinions and preferences on powder granulation.
Thanks.

Huntin

 

FFFg black powder when compared to FFg does burn faster obviously, but this makes it inherently more accurate. When the powder ignites in the chamber using FFFg it gives the ball or bullet the "coasting effect" towards the end of the barrel when compared to FFg, this obviously helps with accuracy.

 

[Birddog6]

The dif in the 2 in some rifles are the dif between a 3" group at 50 yards & a cutting cloverleaf group at 50 yards. Some rifles just prefer the 3F over the 2F & also just the opposite.
As for the dif in velocity, depends on the powder, twist & etc. I have not put this thru a chrony as I never do on a ML but when I practice with my Jaeger for deer hunting, I use 75 grains of FF in it & have it sighted dead on at 75 yards. When I hunt I use FFF of the same load & the impact is 1" exactly higher, more recoil & definately more of a crack when it goes off. So I know there is a considerable difference in the pressure, velocity with the 3F powder in this rifle.

At the range I normally shoot 2F in 54 caliber & over, 3F in 50 cal & under.

I think you could shoot 3F in all of them including 62 cal, but I also think it will gas cut the barrel eventually as it ignites too fast to move that size projectile, so it will eventually gas cut a place near the charge & then you have a ruined barrel. I would much rather play it safe & shoot the2F in the larger bores 90% of the time & keep the bore in good cond.

I have seen a few .50 cals that actually seemed to prefer the 2F, tho it could have been the patch/ball/lube combo playing a great roll in this. The 50's I have shot all did well on 3F.

Check this out, you want to see some hot loads for a ML ? Some of these there are NO WAY I would shoot with 3F Swiss:
http://www.schietsport.com/dutchmuzzleloaders/swiss-lading.htm
They were shooting 3F Swiss in a 12 ga shotguns, 3F Swiss in a 68 cal Flintlock ? I can't imagine doing that but that is what the test charts showed. Personally, I would not shoot 3F Swiss in anything larger than a .45 caliber.

Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Skinning Knives

 

[Darkhorse]

I think there is a lot of advantage to using 3F over 2F in a hunting load. IF, your rifle will shoot it accurately.
According to my Lyman manual 80 grains of 3F in a .54 PRB, shoots about the same velocity as 110 grains of 2F.
When actually shooting the two loads a couple of things were obvious right off;
1. Accuracy was comparable.
2. The 2F load kicked a whole lot more than the 3F. Due to more powder and increased fouling. All this becomes weight that the rifle recoils against.
3. The 2F was much dirtier.
4. Due to the recoil, the 2F hit higher at 50 yards, and lower at 100 yards. This was due to the slower velocity of the 2F load.

All testing was done off a solid bench with sandbags. I was testing loads, not me.

So with the 3F, I get a faster, flatter shooting roundball, with less recoil and less fouling, all with 30 grains less powder. Thats plenty of advantage in a hunting load for me.

 

[roundball]

I've become extremely satisfied with Goex FFFg in .45/.50/.54...I did switch to Goex FFg for the .58 & .62 for fear of premature gas cutting I've seen cautions about.

Fouling has never been an issue for me with either granulation of Goex, never necessary to wipe between shots, and I assume that's due to the lube I use.

With Goex FFg in the .58cal round ball barrel, it's so accurate I have no plans to waste time or money seeing if Goex FFFg is any better...as it is, it couldn't be any more accurate unless all the balls went through the same single hole, which is a goal I'm not interested in spending the time & resources trying to achieve.

Cloverleafs, some overlapping holes, occasional single ragged holes, etc, at 50yds with my hunting loads is more than fine for me

 

[sse]

inherently more accurate

"coasting effect" towards the end of the barrel

I would appreciate knowing the "theory" of each of these propositions. For all I know somebody may take issue, but I would like to understand them in the first place.

Thanks, sse

 

[tg]

I amnot going to get very deep into this one again but just would suggest that if moderate loads will suffice your needs 3f will work in the larger bores, I use it up thru .62 (80 gr) if you gotta put a lot of powder down the tube 2f may be a better choice...your gun will let you know what is best for you.

 

[Deadeye]

I see a lot of "old wifes tales" and a lot of confusion here.
I believe TG has the answer.

 

[jtmattison]

Thanks for all of the input.
I really like using 3f because it ignites so much faster and I don't have to swab NEARLY as much.
I'll stick with it for my light work.
Thanks again,

Huntin

 

[Dave K]

I prefer 2F in my 50cal. I like the recoil better and I get better grps. Now there is a little more fouling but since I am now using Swiss, fouling is almost a thing of the past anyhow. But, even with Goex, my Lyman GPR and Colerain 42" 50cal barreled Beck liked 2F better.

 

[Herb]

Darkhorse- Good evaluation! Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 1975, p. 85: they tested 2F against 3F with .535 patched round balls in a .54 cal 43 inch pressure barrel with a chronograph. They wrote "Weight for weight the 3F does produce greater velocities and pressure."

CHARGE VELOCITY PRESSURE
140 grs. 2F 1779 FPS 8500 LUP
100 grs. 3F 1740 FPS 11700 LUP

"Nearly equal velocities are obtained through the use of a notably lighter charge of 3F powder. Pressure, while up, is not at all alarming and this loading will minimize fouling-an important benefit to the roundball shooter. We then decided to use FFFg in all but .58 and .75 caliber during the Rifle and Musket tests. FFg would be used in .58, .75, 12 gauge and 20 gauge. This same phenomena can be observed in the .45 caliber data section by comparing the 2Fg and 3Fg charges and pressures using velocity (instead of charge weight) as your selection criteria". My friend Neill built a .54 Hawken, couldn't get it to shoot until he used 1F in it, then it grouped fine. He otherwise uses 3F in everything, including trade guns. Another friend has a .54 Green River Hawken that he has probably run 100 or so pounds of 3F through, uses 80 grains for everything, it gets 1615 fps. Swiss 2F works great in .40 caliber, see my posting under "Photos" of Carole's rifle.

 

: I keep hearing about all this fouling and wiping between shots.
; With the lubes I use in my rifles, I've never had to wipe except for at the end of the day and I normally shoot heavy hunting charges.
: I believe 3F is for rifles UNDER .50. A target load for a .50 is 90 to 100gr. 2F. Some of the guys use only 100gr. in their .54's, but most use 120 gr. 2F for most of their shooting in that cal.
: I am speaking of custom rifles with proper twists for round balls. These generally shoot best when the ball is moving close to 1,800fps or over.
: With the ball/patch combos we use, Lyman's data seems to be low on velocity for the .54 and .58.

 

[Wesley]

Daryl
What lube(s) do you use in your rifles? Every lube I've tried feels like I'm gonna break something if I don't swab at least every other shot.
Wesley

 

[roundball]

I'm not Daryl, but I'll toss in my .02cants worth...
I use nothing but natural lube 1000 and my normal Saturday routine is to shoot 40 shots at the range, no wiping until I'm ready for the drive home.
If the fouling can be kept super soft, each single shot's worth of fouling is simply pushed back down on top of the powder with the freshly loaded patched ball...then that fouling is ejected with the shot, and the cycle repeats...never have more than one shot's amount of fouling in the bore at any one time

 

With round balls, I use 85 gr of 3F in my 54 and 75 gr of 3F in my 45. Both shoot quite well with these loads. Higher charges open up groups slightly - not enough to worry about when hunting but why waste powder? My lube is homemade 25% beeswax, 25% Murphy's oil soap and 50% Crisco, by weight.

 

I used to use Bear's Oil for hunting in the winter time and for fall or spring, I used Bear Grease. I even tried vegetable oil for hunting in the winter and had success with that. Now, I have Mink oil for use in the winter & in the fall, & with above freezing temps, will probably use the beeswax, murphy's and Castor oil mix or perhaps if it's as good as it sounds, I'l use it only. Moose snot, I think it's called.
: For snowshoe hares, I use small charges for the close ranges they'r shot at here and never have a fouling problem due to those small charges. almost anyting can be used as a lube and crisco oil works as well as about anything for those charges.
: For all my range work, I use spit. I've yet to see a lube that shoots as cleanly or with as low standard deviations in velocity. Spit effectually cleans each shot a it's loaded. We have a saying, "if it doesn't spray the guy standing beside you when you smack the ball with the starter ball, the patch isn't wet enough. Fouling from shooting a slug for trial, or a Round Ball paper ctg. in the big bores, is effectively cleaned by shooting one 82gr.(3 dram) 2F load with a patched round ball lubed with spit.

 

[Flintshooter in Indiana]

Now I ain't tryin' to get under nobody's skin and this is just my opinion, but, if'n your shootin' 85-100 grs in a 50, 120 in a 54 or 75 in a 45, I believe your a wastin' powder.
I used to shoot 90grs 2f in my 58 smoothbore for targets, and my shoulder got sore after several shots. I talked to several smoothbore shooters at Friendship and they all shot 3f. Less powder, same results. I only shoot 65grs 3f for targets, and that's for shots out to 80+ yds on a woods walk. I shoot 85 3f for huntin in the 58 and 75grs in my 54 Hawken.
There again, that's just me. But with the price of powder........ ::

 

[tg]

I have often wondered if 120 gr in most .54's would not be passing the point of diminishing returns.

 

[Ohio Joe]

tg,
I would think that if your getting complete powder burn and what your shooting at requires such a load as 120 grains in a .54 caliber, then your probably o'kay...
On the other hand, I would not care to shoot a 120 grain load, but then I've never needed to when only hunting deer size game, ringing a gong, or punching a hole in paper...
The other thing is; why put undo stress on your shoulder and rifle shooting such heavy loads, if they are not needed???

 

[cayugad]

Today I was shooting my Hawkins .50 caliber with 75 grains of Goex FFFg and a moose milk (thanks again stumpkiller) patch with a homecast round ball. I was shooting at 40 yards and shot the entire center out of the target. I was doing some free hand shooting at various targets and still had exceptional accuracy.

I also found in my shot barrel muzzleloaders that Goex FFFg seems to give better accuracy. When shooting my .58 caliber the other day I was using Goex FFg and the accuracy was excellent so I have decided that .50 and under will get the Goex FFFg and .54 caliber and bigger will get the Goex FFg. It seems to be a working solution for me.