What happened to Pedersoli's diet and exercise program?

[megasupermagnum]

At first glance they don't look that terribly thick, but pull a breech plug on one and they look like a cannon barrel. Below is a picture of my SXS's barrels with the plugs removed. My hands are huge, and they are thicker than they look . Also worth noting is that they are bored to 9 gauge, .804". They were proofed as a 10 gauge, and it is very likely they were originally around .770" bore making them even thicker yet.

 

[Historian]

What is the interest in lite weight doubles? I hear some people complaining about the modern Pedersoli SXS's being heavy but I just do not see it or feel it. Shooting lite weight doubles with full hunting loads absolutely sucks. Been there and done that. My unmentionables weigh more than my Pedersoli SXS's. I generally shoot 1oz to 1 1/8 oz in my 20's over 75 to 80 grains of 3Fg. In my 10 I shoot 110-120 grains of 2Fg with 1 3/8 oz to 1 5/8 oz of shot. I just cannot imagine shooting these loads in lite weight guns. All my doubles have recoil pads concealed by leather covers to help tame the recoil as well.
George.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Do you have an example? My Birmingham built mid 1800's shotgun has barrels way thicker than even new shotguns. I can provide measurements later.

I have no example. I have handled several though. Do you only have the one example?

 

[Britsmoothy]

What is the interest in lite weight doubles? I hear some people complaining about the modern Pedersoli SXS's being heavy but I just do not see it or feel it. Shooting lite weight doubles with full hunting loads absolutely sucks. Been there and done that. My unmentionables weigh more than my Pedersoli SXS's. I generally shoot 1oz to 1 1/8 oz in my 20's over 75 to 80 grains of 3Fg. In my 10 I shoot 110-120 grains of 2Fg with 1 3/8 oz to 1 5/8 oz of shot. I just cannot imagine shooting these loads in lite weight guns. All my doubles have recoil pads concealed by leather covers to help tame the recoil as well.
George.

I don't find the recoil harsh in my 6lb Pedersoli sxs with ounce plus loads at all.
In my 10g I shoot 2oz over 90gn 3f or finer.
No recoil pads.
No problem.
I like recoil, tells me something good just happened.
I always suggest an airgun for low recoil.

 

[patriot]

It has been said the some people would complain if they had a box seat in heaven.

Patriot

 

[William Lincoln]

Pedersoli has no doubt put more steel into their fowlers. Probably to give added
protection against loading mistakes and those who want to push the envelope.
Pedersoli would not increase shipping costs without good reason.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Choke tubes did a whole lot to change the way people look at shotguns. If you look at most shotguns from the early 1900's until the 70's, they are overall thin barrels. Scary thin by todays standards. With fixed choke, you don't need extra material. When choke tubes caught on, barrels needed to be thicker to accommodate. The most drastic comparison I've seen is compare a Remington 11-48 and a Remington 11-87 barrel side by side.

Now that said, muzzleloaders had chunky barrels. I think people were spoiled with thin barrels for a long time, but muzzleloading shotguns from the 1800's had thick barrels. So in a sense, we are now returning to more appropriate barrel weights.

They dont have to be all that thicker to accommodate choke tubes, .015" wall thickness is generally considered acceptable to retain a standard tube. Have you ever seen a barrel with .015" walls at the muzzle? Looks mighty thin. You can also go with "thin walled" tubes, and you can go down to .010" walls. lol

Mfg's bulked up their barrels because they're afraid of some fool blaming them for their gun blowing up when they exceed the proof loads lol.

 

[pilot]

I have a mid 1800s 12 bore double from probably Belgium that weighs ten pounds with 36 inch barrels. Certainly not an upland bird gun.

 

[Sparkitoff]

My very best shotguns are in the 6- pounds range. Newer Pedersolis start in the 7- pounds range. Even in 12b I tend to shoot 7/8 or 1-ounce loads. Recoil for a few shots bird hunting doesn’t bother me. After a full day of carrying the 7+ pounds shotguns my elbows and wrists hurt, not my shoulder. Through experimentation, I figured out I can carry a bit over 6 pounds gun all day without pain. When it gets to just 1 pounds heavier I’ve exceeded my threshold and the pain is there. For stationary shooting like ducks, doves and driven birds I like the 7-pounds Pedersolis. For 8- hours in the woodcock thickets and a 8 mile + day I need a lot less weight for comfort.

 

[megasupermagnum]

They dont have to be all that thicker to accommodate choke tubes, .015" wall thickness is generally considered acceptable to retain a standard tube. Have you ever seen a barrel with .015" walls at the muzzle? Looks mighty thin. You can also go with "thin walled" tubes, and you can go down to .010" walls. lol

Meg's bulked up their barrels because they're afraid of some fool blaming them for their gun blowing up when they exceed the proof loads lol.

That's completely untrue. I just measured a few choke tubes, Truchoke is the thinnest at ..795" OD, and Remchoke thickest at close to .818". Mike Orlen will thread for chokes, and he requires a minimum of .855" OD, and even then, he recommends Truchoke at that thickness. So he suggests .030" over the choke tube diameter. I had an unmentionable with a .860" OD barrel threaded for truchoke, and it is pretty thin. I'm not going to sit and measure barrels all day, so you will have to test for yourself that any12 gauge barrel made after about 1985 has an OD .860" or bigger. I just measured one of my unmentionable's O/U's from the 1940's, and the barrel OD is about .820" at the muzzle. It has the same OD as a modern choke tube!. Yes there are thinwalls, but they have problems, you do not want to use them if at all possible. Why anyone would install them, I don't know. They are not for hunting guns.

OK, so measuring my mid 1800's SXS, built in Birmingham, the breech end measures about 1.200". They aren't perfectly round, and each barrel is slightly different. The muzzles measure about .930". There's good evidence this was originally a 10 gauge bore, lets say .775". That makes the original wall thicknesses .213" at the breech, and .078 at the muzzles. That's thicker than my modern 10 gauge.

 

[SDSmlf]

My very best shotguns are in the 6- pounds range. Newer Pedersolis start in the 7- pounds range. Even in 12b I tend to shoot 7/8 or 1-ounce loads. Recoil for a few shots bird hunting doesn’t bother me. After a full day of carrying the 7+ pounds shotguns my elbows and wrists hurt, not my shoulder. Through experimentation, I figured out I can carry a bit over 6 pounds gun all day without pain. When it gets to just 1 pounds heavier I’ve exceeded my threshold and the pain is there. For stationary shooting like ducks, doves and driven birds I like the 7-pounds Pedersolis. For 8- hours in the woodcock thickets and a 8 mile + day I need a lot less weight for comfort.

Agree the overall weight is important, but how a gun balances also has an impact on how they carry and shoot. For some reason, the older, lighter Pedersoli double just balances and feels better to me.

 

[3Setters]

In my modern shotgun which weighs in right around 6 pounds, I never go over 7/8 ounce shot. With a light weight Pedersoli 12 gauge, I still dont exceed 7/8 ounce for hunting, and when shooting targets, usually shoot 3/4 ounce loads. Why pound your shoulder when a lighter load will do the job.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

That's completely untrue. I just measured a few choke tubes, Truchoke is the thinnest at ..795" OD, and Remchoke thickest at close to .818". Mike Orlen will thread for chokes, and he requires a minimum of .855" OD, and even then, he recommends Truchoke at that thickness. So he suggests .030" over the choke tube diameter. I had an unmentionable with a .860" OD barrel threaded for truchoke, and it is pretty thin. I'm not going to sit and measure barrels all day, so you will have to test for yourself that any12 gauge barrel made after about 1985 has an OD .860" or bigger. I just measured one of my unmentionable's O/U's from the 1940's, and the barrel OD is about .820" at the muzzle. It has the same OD as a modern choke tube!. Yes there are thinwalls, but they have problems, you do not want to use them if at all possible. Why anyone would install them, I don't know. They are not for hunting guns.

OK, so measuring my mid 1800's SXS, built in Birmingham, the breech end measures about 1.200". They aren't perfectly round, and each barrel is slightly different. The muzzles measure about .930". There's good evidence this was originally a 10 gauge bore, lets say .775". That makes the original wall thicknesses .213" at the breech, and .078 at the muzzles. That's thicker than my modern 10 gauge.

I'll let you read it for yourself, but it's .015" wall thickness at the thinnest point (to keep the choke in the gun). Obviously, you have to also include the thickness of the tube as well (which your numbers are in line with that (for 12 gauge and Invector tubes)), and that makes for a pretty light, handy gun. You don't make the breech section excessively thick (they don't need to be, a 2.5 dram and 7/8oz load in 20bore isn't exactly high pressure lol), those barrels don't weigh much. A 20 bore (it's supposed to be .615, but most ML barrels out there run on the big side of the acceptable margins, at .62) barrel, with a .690
OD invector tube (I have never had issues with PROPERLY installed thin-walls, but the selection of standard Invector or Invector Plus (same diameter, just a longer parallel section and different thread placement) tubes is better) and a .015" barrel wall means the barrel needs to be .72" in OD (I would prefer a couple Thou for a safety factor, in the event the bore isn't centered perfectly (they never are)). That means your actual barrel wall thickness (if you had never reamed and threaded it) is (.725"-.620")/2=0.052"... that's pretty thin lol. If you were to install a typical thinwall choke (.678" OD), that would give you an OD of .708", and I would opt for a .715" od, just to be safe; and that gives you a total wall thickness of (.715-.62)/2=.047", aaaannnd that's really thin (especially on a ML, which receives ramrod wear (good news is you put most of that wear on the tube, so you can replace it as it wears).

a 20 bore barrel that has a breech diameter of 1" and a muzzle diameter of .73" (that's the barrel I use for 20 bore shotguns) isn't going to weigh all that much lol. Certainly less than the muskets Pedersoli is putting out there as shotguns lol.

https://mansonreamers.files.wordpre...ons-for-the-use-of-screw-in-choke-reamers.pdfGranted I use PTG Reamers and taps for my work, but they are dimensionally identical.

Not sure where you get the idea that choke tubes aren't to be used on a hunting gun... most people with modern stuff do quite well with them . 1/2 oz of Lead BB's through a extra-full choke takes Turkey's heads off quite well. Flip the rear sight up for turkey and coyote (and for deer with a rifled choke, ala faux-Paradox Gun), fold it down for clays and wing shooting, chokes allow the gun to be better suited for the various tasks it is going to be used in.

 

[springfield art]

I can tell you that my Pedersoli 12 gauge double proofed in 1978 weighs in at 5.8 pounds (5 lb 12 oz) if I recall correctly. What is the date on the gun you have on the way?

The thick barrels on the Lyman GPR rifles are another example of "Lawyer Rifling"....

 

[Historian]

Ok my bad guys, I forgot some of you cover alot of ground when upland hunting. Carrying a heavy SXS all day and covering a lot of ground can be a PIA. As for the recoil pads I have had 3 right shoulder surgeries so anything to keep me in the field and at the range.

 

[megasupermagnum]

@Wildrangeringreen, the only question I am trying to answer is why did shotgun barrels become thicker in the past few decades. The answer I have given is correct. It doesn't matter the gauge, but I pick 12 gauge since it is most common, old shotguns used to be as thin, or thinner at the muzzle than a choke tube is today. In the 1980's when they became more common, this required thicker barrels to accommodate. Sure you could squeak by at .855", but most manufacturers went thicker than that for safety.

Thin wall choke tubes have a whole bunch of problems. Their only genuine purpose is using a thin barreled gun for competition, and you aren't happy with whatever the fixed chokes are. They hold up to target loads just fine. The problems are for anything else. If you do any kind of waterfowl hunting, you had better keep to low velocity bismuth loads, they wont handle high velocity or any other non-toxic loads. You can not shoot buckshot or slugs of any kind from them. Best case scenario they split and you buy a new tube. Sometimes luck isn't on your side though, and it ruins the muzzle of the gun. At no point did I ever say choke tubes altogether aren't good, thin wall's are the only ones I referred to. They aren't good, and most people will not buy a gun that had them installed.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

@Wildrangeringreen, the only question I am trying to answer is why did shotgun barrels become thicker in the past few decades. The answer I have given is correct. It doesn't matter the gauge, but I pick 12 gauge since it is most common, old shotguns used to be as thin, or thinner at the muzzle than a choke tube is today. In the 1980's when they became more common, this required thicker barrels to accommodate. Sure you could squeak by at .855", but most manufacturers went thicker than that for safety.

Thin wall choke tubes have a whole bunch of problems. Their only genuine purpose is using a thin barreled gun for competition, and you aren't happy with whatever the fixed chokes are. They hold up to target loads just fine. The problems are for anything else. If you do any kind of waterfowl hunting, you had better keep to low velocity bismuth loads, they wont handle high velocity or any other non-toxic loads. You can not shoot buckshot or slugs of any kind from them. Best case scenario they split and you buy a new tube. Sometimes luck isn't on your side though, and it ruins the muzzle of the gun. At no point did I ever say choke tubes altogether aren't good, thin wall's are the only ones I referred to. They aren't good, and most people will not buy a gun that had them installed.

The only time thinwalls do that generally is if they are installed incorrectly. Since thinwalls are generally installed in older, slightly thinner barrels, those barrels are generally oversized due to wear from shot and cleaning. Having the rear of the tube exposed to the bore will do that even with thicker tubes, due to being hit with shot.
TGS on YT had a video about old doubles in Britain, whether they were worth the money or not. He had a guy from Holt's on, and the general consensus is that the barrels were not THAT thin, originally. Also, until the mid 20th century, really thin barrels on a gun were a premium feature, and most people couldn't afford it (or to replace them more frequently due to shorter service life).
Expensive guns get taken care of better, and get used less, so there is a evidence bias towards thin barrels, not dissimilar to the bias in the American Longrifle, where there are more fancy, frilly rifles surviving; and that might give one the idea that the majority were fancy and frilly pieces. So it's not that barrels have gotten heavier, it's that we had a few decades where thin barrels were accessible to the common person, and then they made them marginally larger to accommodate choke tubes. At least that's my take

 

[French Colonial]

The very first problem with this thread is there is to much generalization.

Guns either from the 1800's or today are different depending on who made it, My William Moore is a heavy double that absorbs lots of recoil (Though I am of the opinion that black powder recoil is "softer" than smokeless but that is a different thread) while my Diwisch in Brunn 16 gauge discussed some time back weighs a wispy 5lbs 6oz.

Modern skeet guns vary as well from clunky inexpensive beginner guns to fast handling but sometimes quite pricy beauties.

One thing is for sure there is no set weight for either. Now if you stick to just Pedersoli.......

 

[French Colonial]

Out of curiosity I weighed the William Moore 8lbs 12oz, after picking it up and swinging it the Diwisch feels like a toy

 

[megasupermagnum]

The only generalization I'm making is that shotgun barrels were thinner before choke tubes. It is an overgeneralization, but not that far from reality. I gave some examples of meat and potatoes guns that anybody could buy. Before choke tubes, these had barrels as thin as choke tubes are today. Absolutely, there are some thick barrels out there from pre-choke tubes, especially when you are talking the off gauges like 16 gauge. For 12 gauge though, the majority were too thin to have normal choke tubes installed. Some of them could, but I wouldn't call it the majority by any means. That's why Pedersoli made their barrels thicker. It wasn't for any safety reason, it was so they could thread them for choke tubes.