What is the moisture in the pan?

[George]

The temperature of burning BP is 3,880F. Think about what state the little bit of water produced in the reaction is in at that temperature. Do you guys seriously believe the little part of it that blows out the touchhole at that temperature could cool down enough to condense on anything while traveling only the distance of the width of the pan?

The chemicals produced by burning BP are known. Two of them present in the fouling in your gun and on your pan are potassium carbonate and potassium thiocyanate. Both of these chemicals are said to 'deliquesce'. To deliquesce is described as "becoming liquid by absorbing moisture from the air".

Spence

 

[Zonie]

Imo it has nothing to do w BP residue being hydroscopic.

I believe seating the ball pushes a lot of air through the touch hole (a Venturi) causing the temperature of the air to drop as it crosses the pan and cools the pan. The humidity condensed on the cooled surface mixes with the BP residue.
...

Your right in saying a lot of air passes thru the touch hole. As for the temperature drop, there is a lot more to it and it really doesn't cool the pan.

When something tight fitting is shoved down the barrel, the rising air pressure under it heats the air.
This is the same as the rising piston in a diesel engine raising the air temperature in the engines cylinder.

If the warmed, compressed air is allowed to quickly leak out, although the expanding air does cool, the amount of heat it looses is exactly the same as the amount of heat it gained when the ramrod was compressing it. The net effect is, the air returns to the same temperature it was before it was compressed.

Before anyone says, "But, the air coming out of my air compressor is cooler." they should remember, the air compressor (usually) has cooling fins on the outlet side of the compressor and the tank the compressed air goes in also acts like a large heat sink.
Combined, these remove the heat that was made from the airs compression.

The now compressed and cooled air sits there in the tank until it is released.
When it is released, its expansion absorbs the heat in the area making the air seem cool.

This same thing applies to the refrigeration unit in a car or home.
Without the condenser coils to cool the compressed refrigerant, it wouldn't cool the evaporator coil either.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Not only your pans get soupy, the pan cover section of the frizzen and your flint get it. I wipe the flint face, then the pan roof section on the frizzen, then the pan itself.

I lick my thumb to wipe off the flint and frizzen. Tastes great. :grin:

 

[hanshi]

I lick my thumb to wipe off the flint and frizzen. Tastes great. :grin:

But that's only because you are an addict like....well, you know. :2

 

[nhmoose]

Water.

 

[Ron LaClair]

I am loading with Goex FFFg, a PRB using the "dry patch". They are 7:1 water/ballistoil but feel totally dry. I swab with a very lightly moistened spit patch between shots. Every few shots and as often as every other shot there is moisture in the pan that I have to wipe out with a dry patch. Where is the moisture coming from?

It's coming from the spit in your spit patch. When you push the "lightly moistened" patch down the barrel it squeezes out the moisture and pushes in into the pan.

 

[rr11]

Like who? No one on this forum. :metoo:

 

[Col. Batguano]

That's it exactly. The adiabatic heating and cooling rates of gasses.

Related question; Since iron (ore) melts around 1500F degrees, and steel at 2750F, with black powder burning at the previously stated temperature of 4480F, with average pressures of 15,000 psi, or 1000 ATA, that creates an extremely high peak temperature (which then dissipates as the pressure is lowered. So here's the question. With those temperatures you would think at least a few microns of the steel in the barrel would sublime in to gas. It clearly doesn't. Why not?

 

[hanshi]

:rotf:

 

[jpm1963]

That's it exactly. The adiabatic heating and cooling rates of gasses.

Related question; Since iron (ore) melts around 1500F degrees, and steel at 2750F, with black powder burning at the previously stated temperature of 4480F, with average pressures of 15,000 psi, or 1000 ATA, that creates an extremely high peak temperature (which then dissipates as the pressure is lowered. So here's the question. With those temperatures you would think at least a few microns of the steel in the barrel would sublime in to gas. It clearly doesn't. Why not?

I think the issue here is energy transfer, to change phases from solid to liquid or gaseous state takes a huge amount of energy . . . although the temperatures and pressures are high, the conditions are only present for a few milliseconds, and enough energy does not transfer to the steel. The energy is released by the ball moving out the barrel.

Jim

 

[Black Hand]

Every few shots and as often as every other shot there is moisture in the pan that I have to wipe out with a dry patch. Where is the moisture coming from?

Water is a product of combustion....

 

[FishDFly]

Water is a product of combustion

Water, I thought it came from the sky.

Duh????????????????????????

 

[Black Hand]

I'm not sure how to interpret your response...

Water is a byproduct of combustion:
Combustion takes place when fuel...reacts with the oxygen in air to produce heat. Along with heat, CO2 (carbon dioxide) and H2O (water) are created as byproducts of the exothermic reaction. http://www.e-inst.com/combustion/

An even more accurate equation of the decomposition of regular black powder with the use of sulfur can be described as:
4KNO3 + C7H4O + 2S ””> 2K2S + 4CO2 + 3CO + 2H2O + 2N2 https://schemicals.blogspot.com/2012/05/combustion-characteristics-of-gunpowder.html

 

[azmntman]

:thumbsup:
LMAO

I believe someone thinks the moisture is from a rainstorm? But why? Deer dont move around in rain storms so why would we practice hunting them so?

 

[Rifleman1776]

adiabatic

Careful. :shocked2:
This is a family friendly forum. You aren't supposed to use words like that here. :shake:
Hey! It is bp mud. Enuf said. :wink:

 

[Grenadier1758]

adiabatic

Careful. :shocked2:
This is a family friendly forum. You aren't supposed to use words like that here. :shake:
Hey! It is bp mud. Enuf said. :wink:

The good Col is simply recalling his misspent college days when he was taking Thermodynamics.

From Wikipedia: In thermodynamics, an adiabatic process is one that occurs without transfer of heat or matter between a thermodynamic system and its surroundings.

For us it simply means that when we get enough heat to our powder charge it starts the firing process that moves the ball out of the barrel and leaves a coating of fouling in the breech and on the pan.

Back to the moisture question. The fouling is the adiabatic process of drawing water vapor from the humidity in the air and collecting the vapor in the pan and in the breech and we see it as a muddy damp mess that needs to be wiped from the pan.

Or, when angels spritz water in your pan, there is no way to get the prime to flash. RG Bingaman has the more earthy description on page 1.

 

[hanshi]

All I can swear to is that in dry weather no moisture at all forms in my rifles pan; only when it's humid.

 

[azmntman]

I live in AZ, many days humidity in single digits. I have not once ever seen moisture in the pan. In facts when I wipe the pan and flint I use Hoppes to break up the DRIED on crud :idunno:

PS: In Ariz the shade works as designed

 

[MSW]

it is secretcrud (that's a technical term, or what attorneys call 'phrase of art') ... it's actual composition is a matter of some scholarly debate, but once we can clearly discern how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, we will be able to analyze why they're dancing, and thus determine how many of them are peeing, or will soon pee, and what portion of them will be pointed in the direction of your pan.

until such time as this is settled, however, you may assume this to be BP stew, or pan soup. simply dispose of it with a dry cloth (not your shirt, unless you enjoy sleeping on the couch). Be sure you get any which might have splashed on the frizzen face and the flint.

pan soup tastes terrible, by the way.

make good smoke!

 

[hanshi]

:surrender: Me too. :thumbsup: Been there; done that.