Newtire
32 Cal.
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Yes, that's what we called it in the Navy. Other names amongst saltier sailors.
What is the proper name for "possibles bag"?
- Thread starter Jeff Marshall
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I think the historical term is wholey dependent on time and place. It had a different nomenclature, at different times and in different regions. In the Southeast in the late 18th and into the 19th century I see "shot pouch" used a great deal. Here is an example. This is a return of equipment from Capt Hartsell's militia company during the Creek Indian War in November 1813. For the most part, these men brought their weapons and accouterments from home when they mustered.
1 Captains 2 Lieutenants 1 Ensign 4 Sergeants 3 Corporals 63 Privats 73 Rifles 73 Powder horns 73 Shot Pouches 37 lbs of powder 1000 loose ball 20 flints 75 knapsacks 73 blankets 70 tomehocks 73 knieves 7 tents 6 kitels 9 skillets 1 bucket 2 axes 1 wagon
1 Captains 2 Lieutenants 1 Ensign 4 Sergeants 3 Corporals 63 Privats 73 Rifles 73 Powder horns 73 Shot Pouches 37 lbs of powder 1000 loose ball 20 flints 75 knapsacks 73 blankets 70 tomehocks 73 knieves 7 tents 6 kitels 9 skillets 1 bucket 2 axes 1 wagon
Pete G
76 Cal.
DOPE=Data Of Previous Engagement
I am not usually very PC in the area of ML's. Hi-ebber, and day is always a hi-ebber, this thread has got me thinking....
I carry what I have heretofore called my possibles bag whenever I am out with a long arm. Any long arm. The only difference is the type of ammunition I carry in the bag. With ML's it is usually a few "Speed Loaders." The rest of the bag is filled with such items as a gutting knife, folding saw, branch clippers, marking tape and so on.
So I decided I will make myself a L. lyman shot pouch to carry my ML shooting needs; shotgun or rifle. I'll still carry my possibles bag with it's "whatever I might possibly need" contents, but I will also carry a "shot pouch" when out on a BP excursion.
Terminology problem solved.
I carry what I have heretofore called my possibles bag whenever I am out with a long arm. Any long arm. The only difference is the type of ammunition I carry in the bag. With ML's it is usually a few "Speed Loaders." The rest of the bag is filled with such items as a gutting knife, folding saw, branch clippers, marking tape and so on.
So I decided I will make myself a L. lyman shot pouch to carry my ML shooting needs; shotgun or rifle. I'll still carry my possibles bag with it's "whatever I might possibly need" contents, but I will also carry a "shot pouch" when out on a BP excursion.
Terminology problem solved.
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Don't forget about where you are from. In some places the terms "bag", "poke" and "sack" are used for the same item. Possibles poke, possibles sack, possibles bag, all possible.
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Just remembered from way back when I was a Scout in the 60's. A ditty bag referred to a small bag(s) to hold items of like usage to be stashed in your pack for easy access among the other contents.
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You jarred my memory there. That's what we called the small bag just under the top flap of the backpack on the A.T. Ditty bag. Would pack it in the morning with everything you would normally need for the day so you didn't have to dig around in the carefully packed large areas.
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Southern Indiana ... possibles bag. Picked up the term in the '70s from the guys shooting at the IU range. (wonder if IU still has its shooting program?).
Bob McBride
54 Cal.
Possibles bags are small haversacks or similar one would carry day to day more like a man purse. What they are called is mostly dependent on use. Hunting Pouch or Hunting Bag is most accurate and is found in the historical record, as is Shot Pouch, and Shooting bag among others I'm sure.
‘It’s a shambles in here!” You mean it’s a butcher shop? ‘ No, No I mean it’s a mess!’ What a group of eating soldiers, “No, I’m trying to say it looks shoddy!’ Oh you mean it looks like reprossed’ wool clothing. ‘I didn’t mean shoddy I met sloppy”, oh you mean like tough working men’s clothes?’Agggghhhhh, just put your possible all in one bag!” A possibles bag?
If you can provide a link to the use of Hunting Pouch, Hunting Bag or Shooting Bag in the literature of the 18th century I'd like them for my records, please. Thanks.
Spence
Bob McBride
54 Cal.
Hey Spence,
In a few minutes on Google Books:
Here’s one for ‘Hunting Pouch’ c1670
https://books.google.com/books?id=5...TAEegQIARAh#v=onepage&q=hunting pouch&f=false
‘Hunting Bag’ c1808 (In a Dictionary so certainly used in the 18th Century)
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...oATAHegQIARA3#v=onepage&q=hunting bag&f=false
‘Shooting bag’ c1797
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...ATAAegQIARAC#v=onepage&q=shooting bag&f=false
I see these terms most often in my studies.
In a few minutes on Google Books:
Here’s one for ‘Hunting Pouch’ c1670
https://books.google.com/books?id=5...TAEegQIARAh#v=onepage&q=hunting pouch&f=false
‘Hunting Bag’ c1808 (In a Dictionary so certainly used in the 18th Century)
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...oATAHegQIARA3#v=onepage&q=hunting bag&f=false
‘Shooting bag’ c1797
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...ATAAegQIARAC#v=onepage&q=shooting bag&f=false
I see these terms most often in my studies.
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Call your pouch whatever you want to. It's yours. If you're going to the shooting line or out in the forest, just remember that it is for taking just enough items to shoot as many shots as you expect to, and enough other stuff (tools) as you may need to take care of problems that may come up when you are away from your main source of supply. Usually, in a leather bag with a strap to carry it all in. The bag should hold all your "stuff" securely, be up to any weather that may arise, and be fully resistant to any spark entering when it is sealed. Don't forget to seal it fully between each discharge. Look around and see what experienced shooters have come up with and adopt any good idea you see. Then, discard what doesn't suit how you shoot to keep the whole mess light enough to carry for as long a time as may be needed .
Have fun!
May the sun shine on your target, not in your eyes!
Don
Have fun!
May the sun shine on your target, not in your eyes!
Don
Bob McBride
54 Cal.
That’s hard to argue with. That being said, if you consider historical precedents and correctness, I completely agree with ‘discard what doesn’t suit you’ as that’s the historical, and contemporary imperative, if you’re actually hitting the woods with your historical firearm. Fumbling is for the birds. Good post.
Bob McBride
54 Cal.
[QUOTE="Spence10, post: 1655726, member: 17510" ]
[QUOTE="Bob McBride, post: 1655703, member: 47667]
I see these terms most often in my studies.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the response.
Spence
[/QUOTE]
You bet.
[QUOTE="Bob McBride, post: 1655703, member: 47667]
I see these terms most often in my studies.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the response.
Spence
[/QUOTE]
You bet.
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In the military we call a small bag with gear in it a ditty bag, typically hygiene type stuff. One term is “72 hour bag” or “24 hour bag” to describe a bag with enough supplies for either one or three days. We have to keep a 72 hour bag ready at all time.
I usually carry three bags, one on my belt, a leather shoulder bag and a haversack .. That way I should have everything I “possibly“ need..
I think to save all the confusion I’ll go to a zip loc bag .....They’re small like original bags were.
Maybe I’ll find one with the fold over top instead of a zip loc. It’d be more historically correct I assUme....
I think to save all the confusion I’ll go to a zip loc bag .....They’re small like original bags were.
Maybe I’ll find one with the fold over top instead of a zip loc. It’d be more historically correct I assUme....
I started reading this thread several days ago, and began researching the topic. I think Spence10 really nailed it in his post. I can only add that Lewis Garrard, in Wah-To-Ya and the Taos Trail, also used the term, "possible sack," on pages 270-271: “If you see a man’s mule running off, don’t stop it – let it go to the devil; it isn’t yourn. If his possible sack falls off, don’t tell him of it; he’ll find it out.”
Note that Stewart, Garrard, and Ruxton all mentioned the term "possible sack." That's "possible" (singular, not "possibles") and "sack" (not bag or pouch). What did a possible sack look like? I don't know, but here is a possibility:
These are some of the "possibles" and shooting equipment of an old-time buffalo hunter named J. Nosworthy, from the late 1850's. Check out the big buckskin sack in the lower left of the picture. I'm not saying it is or isn't a "possible sack," but I think it might be.
I'm assuming the OP was intending to discuss that pouch that hangs from a shoulder strap and holds ammunition and shooting gear for muzzle loading firearms. I did a pretty extensive search of the topic over the past couple of days. I will say that my area of interest is primarily in the trans-Mississippi west during the first sixty or so years of the 19th century, and my review of the literature reflects this, so if you are interested in documentation for an earlier time or different place you may be on your own. Using a computer assisted search, I went through the following period accounts:
Journal of a Trapper (Osborne Russell)
Wild Sports in the Far West (Frederick Gerstaecker)
Narrative of the Adventures of Zenas Leonard (Zenas Leonard)
The Oregon Trail (Francis Parkman)
Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail (Lewis Garrard)
Life in the Far West (George Augustus Frederic Ruxton)
Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri: The Personal Narrative of Charles Larpenteur, 1833-1872 (Charles Larpenteur)
Edward Warren (William Drummond Stewart)
Diary of a Journey from the Mississippi to the Coasts of the Pacific (Baldwin Mollhausen)
I found the following terms. The numbers represent frequency of occurrence:
Bullet pouch - 11
Shot pouch - 7
Pouch - 12
Ball pouch - 1
Hunting pouch - 2
It was clear from the context that "bullet pouch," "shot pouch," and "ball pouch" referred to a the type of pouch in question, and not the little "bottle" type ball bags with the spout and stopper. Also, I only counted the single word "pouch" when it was used in reference to the pouch we are discussing, just as we might say "horn" when it is clear from the context that we mean a "powder horn." I did not count occurrences that were clearly referring to a tobacco pouch, for example.
Interestingly, the two German travelers (Gerstaecker and Mollhausen) both used the term "shot belt," albeit sparingly. One quote from Gerstaecker, "... his powder-horn and shot-belt hung at his right side...," suggests the "belt" was a shoulder strap. This may have been an oddity of translation, as both books were originally written in German and translated to English. Both authors also used the term "shot pouch" as a general rule, although Gerstaecker once said "ball pouch" and Mollhausen once used the term "hunting pouch."
To add to the confusion, Gerstaecker also carried a German "game bag." If you subscribe to Muzzleloader magazine, you may remember T. C. Albert's splendid articles about making one of these, a few months ago. Based on Gerstaecker's comments, the German "game bag" functioned much like a "possible sack" carried on the person. He wrote at one point that,"...besides my game bag, which was filled with all possible sorts of things, I had a large buffalo skin...," and "I had one spare shirt in my game bag, with a pair of rather woful [sic] looking socks, a small cord, a bullet mould, and a few bits of lead..."
Several writers made it clear their shot/bullet/hunting pouches held ammunition. Parkman indicated he had percussion caps in his. Most of us assume these pouches were only used for shooting gear, but Ruxton and Mollhausen specifically mentioned people keeping their fire-starting implements in the same pouch: "Their bullet pouches always contain a flint, and steel, and sundry pieces of "punk" or tinder..." (Ruxton), and "Fortunately, one of us found that he had got with him in his hunting pouch the means of kindling a light..." (Mollhausen). Stewart's Edward Warren stated "...an awl was attached to my pouch, which, with a large transparent horn of powder and a wooden measure hanging to it completed my equipment." Ruxton famously described Bill Williams' pouch with an awl, a worm, a bullet mould, and a bottle of castoreum fastened to the strap. Larpenteur mentioned "...a dried buffalo sinew which I had in my bullet pouch for mending moccasins." Oddly enough, souvenirs also found their way into the hunter's pouches; Parkman's partner, Shaw, crammed his "bullet-pouch" full of rattles from the snakes he killed, and Garrard found a human jawbone, which he put in his "bullet pouch for safe keeping."
Much more could be said, and there are plenty more books to review. However, I think I got a pretty fair sample, and conclude that the leather bag hanging from our shoulders can be properly called a bullet pouch, shot pouch, hunting pouch, or ball pouch, or even just a pouch (if the context is clear), and we will be using historically correct terminology for the trans-Mississippi west of the early 19th century. A "possible sack" is something else entirely, and the term "possibles bag" was apparently not in the vocabulary.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
Note that Stewart, Garrard, and Ruxton all mentioned the term "possible sack." That's "possible" (singular, not "possibles") and "sack" (not bag or pouch). What did a possible sack look like? I don't know, but here is a possibility:
These are some of the "possibles" and shooting equipment of an old-time buffalo hunter named J. Nosworthy, from the late 1850's. Check out the big buckskin sack in the lower left of the picture. I'm not saying it is or isn't a "possible sack," but I think it might be.
I'm assuming the OP was intending to discuss that pouch that hangs from a shoulder strap and holds ammunition and shooting gear for muzzle loading firearms. I did a pretty extensive search of the topic over the past couple of days. I will say that my area of interest is primarily in the trans-Mississippi west during the first sixty or so years of the 19th century, and my review of the literature reflects this, so if you are interested in documentation for an earlier time or different place you may be on your own. Using a computer assisted search, I went through the following period accounts:
Journal of a Trapper (Osborne Russell)
Wild Sports in the Far West (Frederick Gerstaecker)
Narrative of the Adventures of Zenas Leonard (Zenas Leonard)
The Oregon Trail (Francis Parkman)
Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail (Lewis Garrard)
Life in the Far West (George Augustus Frederic Ruxton)
Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri: The Personal Narrative of Charles Larpenteur, 1833-1872 (Charles Larpenteur)
Edward Warren (William Drummond Stewart)
Diary of a Journey from the Mississippi to the Coasts of the Pacific (Baldwin Mollhausen)
I found the following terms. The numbers represent frequency of occurrence:
Bullet pouch - 11
Shot pouch - 7
Pouch - 12
Ball pouch - 1
Hunting pouch - 2
It was clear from the context that "bullet pouch," "shot pouch," and "ball pouch" referred to a the type of pouch in question, and not the little "bottle" type ball bags with the spout and stopper. Also, I only counted the single word "pouch" when it was used in reference to the pouch we are discussing, just as we might say "horn" when it is clear from the context that we mean a "powder horn." I did not count occurrences that were clearly referring to a tobacco pouch, for example.
Interestingly, the two German travelers (Gerstaecker and Mollhausen) both used the term "shot belt," albeit sparingly. One quote from Gerstaecker, "... his powder-horn and shot-belt hung at his right side...," suggests the "belt" was a shoulder strap. This may have been an oddity of translation, as both books were originally written in German and translated to English. Both authors also used the term "shot pouch" as a general rule, although Gerstaecker once said "ball pouch" and Mollhausen once used the term "hunting pouch."
To add to the confusion, Gerstaecker also carried a German "game bag." If you subscribe to Muzzleloader magazine, you may remember T. C. Albert's splendid articles about making one of these, a few months ago. Based on Gerstaecker's comments, the German "game bag" functioned much like a "possible sack" carried on the person. He wrote at one point that,"...besides my game bag, which was filled with all possible sorts of things, I had a large buffalo skin...," and "I had one spare shirt in my game bag, with a pair of rather woful [sic] looking socks, a small cord, a bullet mould, and a few bits of lead..."
Several writers made it clear their shot/bullet/hunting pouches held ammunition. Parkman indicated he had percussion caps in his. Most of us assume these pouches were only used for shooting gear, but Ruxton and Mollhausen specifically mentioned people keeping their fire-starting implements in the same pouch: "Their bullet pouches always contain a flint, and steel, and sundry pieces of "punk" or tinder..." (Ruxton), and "Fortunately, one of us found that he had got with him in his hunting pouch the means of kindling a light..." (Mollhausen). Stewart's Edward Warren stated "...an awl was attached to my pouch, which, with a large transparent horn of powder and a wooden measure hanging to it completed my equipment." Ruxton famously described Bill Williams' pouch with an awl, a worm, a bullet mould, and a bottle of castoreum fastened to the strap. Larpenteur mentioned "...a dried buffalo sinew which I had in my bullet pouch for mending moccasins." Oddly enough, souvenirs also found their way into the hunter's pouches; Parkman's partner, Shaw, crammed his "bullet-pouch" full of rattles from the snakes he killed, and Garrard found a human jawbone, which he put in his "bullet pouch for safe keeping."
Much more could be said, and there are plenty more books to review. However, I think I got a pretty fair sample, and conclude that the leather bag hanging from our shoulders can be properly called a bullet pouch, shot pouch, hunting pouch, or ball pouch, or even just a pouch (if the context is clear), and we will be using historically correct terminology for the trans-Mississippi west of the early 19th century. A "possible sack" is something else entirely, and the term "possibles bag" was apparently not in the vocabulary.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
Skychief
69 Cal.
I see what ya did there smo!
