What kind of accuracy should I expect TC Hawken

[BobinIL]

I have a very nice TC Hawken 50 cal I purchased that I believe was unfired. The bore was bright and shiney. I have been using Goex FF and patched RB with .10 patch lubed with Bore butter. I swab with a wet patch followed by a dry patch after each shot. I have tried both .490 and .495 RB. I can only get about 3" groups at 70 yards. I think my bigest problem is the sights. The bead is hard to see and it pretty much covers a 4" circle at 70 yards distance. Am I getting all I can get out of this gun or should it be doing better? So far every shot I have fired would kill a deer so that is a positive. I'm just not seeing tack driving accuracy.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I'm just not seeing tack driving accuracy.

Can you see tacks at 70 yards?
Let's keep things realistic...

You are shooting about average IMO.
Experimenting with the loads and components, different sights, and lots of practice......All will shrink those groups down.

3" at 70 yards is acceptable, considering what you are using.

Also, Most people I know sight their high powered rifles in at 100 yards....But, muzzleloaders at 25 or 50 yards...So doing your bench work at 70 yards would be like shooting a high powered gun at 300 and expecting 100 yard results...IMO.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I agree with Clyde. That 3 inch group at 70 yards is pretty good with most muzzle loader. I did change out the sights on my TC many years ago with a set of "primitive" sights that are more of a partridge style of sight. I used a 6 o'clock hold on a 50 yard target and a center hold at 100 yards. That seemed to get pretty close to the center at both ranges. My TC 50 Hawken seems to like 50 grains of BP and 80 grains for pretty fair accuracy. I use a fairly tight patch in the .18 to .20 thickness range.

At this point my eyes aren't good enough to consistently get a 3 inch group at 50 yards let alone at 70 or 100.

 

[BrownBear]

I think my bigest problem is the sights. The bead is hard to see and it pretty much covers a 4" circle at 70 yards distance.

I'm betting there's more accuracy waiting, but as you suspect it likely will require refining your sight picture more than additional load development. Though it won't hurt to test loads again once you refine your sighting.

Try this: Instead of covering the target with the bead, set the target right on top of the bead. Don't worry about where the shots are landing when you do that right now- just do it and shoot for group. I'm betting you'll tighten your groups noticeably. It's called a "6 o'clock hold" by target shooters.

Next step will be deciding if you want to resight the rifle for that hold. It's fine for target shooting, but can be hard to learn for hunting. About 50 years ago I learned to "cut" my target with the top of a bead or blade for hunting. That lets you see the animal clearly while being precise about shot placement. I strongly dislike 6 O'clock holds for hunting, so I'd resight if I was serious about target shooting.

 

[dave524]

Like others have said, that is about average for your setup. I have a Lyman 48 peep and a 17 hooded front sight on mine and still around 3 inches at 100 yds, but it will drop 3 Maxi's into 1 1/2 inches when my eyes were younger at 100.

 

[Tom Compton]

It's all there in above posts.

Summary

Square front and rear sights or peep and post.
6 o'clock hold
Thicker patch
Experiment w lube and powder load
Shoot more

 

[Lonegun1894]

I get 3-4"@100yds with my CVA St. Louis hawken, my Lyman GPR, and used to get the same with my TC hawken back when I had it. Personally, I think your groups are fine, but will improve with better sights and load development if you want to tighten things up a bit.

For sights, I replace all my rear sights with fixed sights because I have had adjustables move on me. My front sights are all silver blades without a bead also.

Another thing I would highly recommend would be to get Dutch Schoultz's Accuracy System. Costs about $20 and saves you a lot more that that, so money VERY well spent.

As a last thought, quit shooting at bulls eyes. I'm sorry but I can't remember who it was on this forum that taught me this, but get a bright piece of paper, like construction paper, fold it corner to corner so you end up with an X in the center, and then cut it along the folds so you end up with 4 triangles. Then staple the triangles to your target backer with a point down. When you're shooting, you set the tip of the point just on top of your front sight, so your POA is actually a small tip of a corner instead of a round circle like it would be when shooting at bulls eyes. It helps shrink your groups also. See if that helps you shrink your groups some.

Best of luck, but your current groups are fine too. As you said, every single one of your shots would have killed a deer, so there is not a thing wrong with your current performance. :hatsoff:

 

[azmntman]

I dont like bead fronts either, get a blade (thinner the better IMO). Also GET THE DUTCH SYSTEM, $20.00 and your groups will shrink or yer money returned. LOTTA load development to come but a first outing like that (3" @ 70yds) tells me yer gun can likely do far better. Thicker patches, more or less powder, different lubes etc. Get Dutchs system, give it a few months and report back! :hatsoff:

 

[BobinIL]

Thank you for all the help. I will try the 6 o'clock hold and get some targets that are a little more defined. I am also going to try some 3f powder. I really don't see a need to bump the powder charge up past 80 grains but with 3f it will give a little more velocity. I assume the gun will shoot better the more I shoot it due to barrel break in and seasoning? I am pretty hooked on these muzzleloaders when ever I go shoot I find myself taking the Hawken or one of my inlines rather than my cartridge guns. Now I have to find a good TC in 54cal

 

[Cowboy]

I agree with all the above suggestions but will only add that a thicker patch might be in order.

Right now you are using .10 lubed with BB. Both my TC Hawken Rifle's like .15 to .18 patch thickness. I also used to use .10 patch's but found that a thicker patch shrunk by shot groups considerably.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[BrownBear]

I assume the gun will shoot better the more I shoot it due to barrel break in and seasoning?

There's that point too. I never started with a new TC barrel to confirm it, but every other new barrel I've used needed a break-in.

One point of clarification:

Don't get sucked in by any talk about "seasoning" with Bore Butter. It's the purest form of horse puckey. Whole volumes have been written here to document it and the myth is thoroughly busted. In fact many folks have found Bore Butter to be one of the worst lubes in terms of accuracy. Lots more written here about alternative lubes too, and worth your read. Some guns really like Bore Butter, and some don't. But I'd sure put lubes on the list of things to test along with charge, patch and ball diameter if you're seeking ultimate accuracy.

 

[huntinguy]

So far I have shot Renagades, Senecas and Cherokees. This is what I have learned. TC barrels are... not what I would call consistent. Some will do well under 2" at 100 yards, manged three shots at 1.5 once. Others... 6-8 inches.

My suggestion is work with the gun, change patches, lubes, types of balls- round, conical, mini, maxi, cast, swaged. Change powders FF, FFF. Mess with loading pressure. I had one rifle I loaded using a bathroom scale. Doing so i could make two of three conical touch at 100 and 8" gongs at 200 were hit with boring regularity.

doing such I have brought a 4 inch gun down to 2 inches.

but some are just 6" guns and there is nothing that I have found to fix that.

Others I have talked with didn't share my experiences. So...

Lubes make a HUGE difference. The gun I got down to 2 inches will only do it with one lube. Anything else it is a 4 inch gun.

 

[bubba.50]

with a Lyman 17A with whatever insert suits you best on the front & Lyman 57SML on the back I'd almost bet hard money you can knock an inch or more off those groups.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Don't get sucked in by any talk about "seasoning" with Bore Butter. It's the purest form of horse puckey. Whole volumes have been written here to document it and the myth is thoroughly busted. In fact many folks have found Bore Butter to be one of the worst lubes in terms of accuracy.

. Worth repeating. :thumbsup:

 

[Cowboy]

Don't get sucked in by any talk about "seasoning" with Bore Butter. It's the purest form of horse puckey. Whole volumes have been written here to document it and the myth is thoroughly busted. In fact many folks have found Bore Butter to be one of the worst lubes in terms of accuracy.

. Worth repeating. :thumbsup:

I 3rd that!

After being on this forum not even a month, I would have to say that was the first thing I changed in my shooting routine as well as cleaning and storing my muzzleloader's.

Threw my BB away and never looked back!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Zonie]

... I have been using Goex FF and patched RB with .10 patch lubed with Bore butter. I swab with a wet patch followed by a dry patch after each shot. I have tried both .490 and .495 RB. .

Ignoring the misplaced decimal point (it should say .010 patch), the patch is the biggest part of the problem.

TC's have fairly shallow rifling grooves in their barrels. Typically, they are about .005 (five thousandths) of an inch deep.

This was done so the TC could shoot both elongated bullets and round balls. (Elongated bullets don't work well with deep rifling grooves).

If you increase the patch thickness to help it grab those shallow grooves it will help a lot.

Change from the .010 (ten thousandths) to .015, or better yet, .018 like much of the "pillow ticking" is, you will find the size of your groups shrink down a lot.

Yes, the thicker patch will make it necessary to use a ball starter, often called a "short starter", to get the patched ball into the muzzle.

After the patched ball is started, the ball will deform and the patch will crush down so ramming it the rest of the way down the bore won't be a problem.

If you see some .015 pre-lubed patches at a gun store, don't buy them. The lube breaks down the cloth strength over time.
If you find some unlubricated .015 patches, go for them.

 

[BobinIL]

Thanks for all the help, Can I get some lube recommendations since the bore butter is a no go?

 

[nwtradegun]

three inch groups at 70 yards is good, it will put meat on the table.

 

[BrownBear]

Thanks for all the help, Can I get some lube recommendations since the bore butter is a no go?

For starters I'd try plain old spit. Just moisten your patches lightly in your mouth and loadem. Not my favorite, but a lot of range shooters on here sure swear by it.

Some folks swear by the same with olive oil, but very lightly applied.

My favorite for field shooting and hunting is mink tallow from Track of the Wolf. A can of it isn't much money and will last most shooters a lifetime. I treat my leather goods with it as well as shooting, and it's taken me three years to go through half a can. Light application with it, too.

 

[White Oak]

I personally would not be disappointed with 3" groups at 70 yards. It never hurts to strive for better. That's all part of the fun with this stuff finding different patching , lubes, charges or sighting methods that work best for you. Besides, you get to shoot while working on it.
I sight in at 50 yards simply because I shoot no farther. The added challenge of hunting with these weapons and open sights is what drew me to traditional muzzleloaders.
Take care,
Ed