What patterns can I expact from a mod choke

[PHI]

Guy's,
I am new to muzzleloaders but I am toying to get a percussion shotgun (12ga) with a cylinder and modified choke. How do the compare pattern/ efective range) wise with a "modern" shotgun with the same choke?

 

[BrownBear]

Pretty close with "comparable" components. I.e., if you shoot a ML with plastic wad columns, it's going to pattern much like a modern gun with modern loads. Shoot a modern guns with loads having no plastic wads, and it will pattern much like the ML.

 

[paulvallandigham]

All chokes have to be tested in a given barrel. This is the same whether you have a barrel with fixed chokes, or one that provides changeable "screw-in" Choke tubes.

The amount that a choke constricts the pattern of shot depends on the powder charge, the amount of shot, the wads used, and the actual Size of the shot pellets used.

"Choke" constriction is expressed as a Percentage of the entire amount of shot fired from the gun, calculated as a number of pellets, that hit inside a 30 inch circle at 40 yards. Full Choke, for instance is considered to be a choke of .040" that will deliver approx. 70-75% of the pellets into that 30 inch circle at 40 yards.

Modified choke is roughly .020" ( 20 Points) of constriction, that delivers 60-65% of the shot to that 30" circle.

Improved cylinder is roughly .10"( 10 pts.) of constriction, and delivers approx. 40% of the pellets to that 30" circle.

Cylinder bore is -zero- constriction, and delivers about 30% of the pellets to that 30" circle.

In a Black Powder shotgun, where velocities that are attained in modern, Smokeless Cartridge shotgun are simply NOT possible, a Cylinder Bore is considered to be effective on game out to 25 yards. Your modified barrel is considered to be effective out to 35 yards, PROVIDED, you use a pellet size that carries sufficient pellet energy at that distance to kill game.

Having the SKILL to accurately estimate Range is critical to success using any shotgun, but its even more important when using BP shotguns.

If You are not used to judging distance, particular in the air, FIRST put some ranging stakes out in your back yard. so that you can get used to what these ranges are ON THE GROUND. Next, get some helium filled balloons, and tie them with string, so that you can send them aloft at different heights, and at different ranges.

I once hunted at a goose hunting club in S. Illinois, that had a life size balloon of a Canada Goose, on a string 120 feet long( 40 yards) right outside the front door at the clubhouse. Because Canada Geese are so much BIGGER than most ducks, some duck hunters think that the geese are much closer than they really are, and will start shooting when the geese are still more than 100 yards overhead( skybusting). By putting that balloon up at the door, it allows people- duck hunters and others --- to get their brains rewired to the size of these large birds, so they wait to begin shooting until the birds are actually in range. That was A very good idea for a Goose club to promote, IMHO. I had shot at another club a couple of years earlier, where no such thing was done, and we have people in the next club over shooting at geese that were 120 yards up. Our guide and caller used his walkie talkie, to contact our club owner so that the owner could call the manager of the next club to do something about those guys. About 15 minutes later, we saw a pick up truck drive out to those goose blinds, and the hunters were removed. My hunting partner thought the guys were shooting #4 buckshot loads, based on the heavy report, and the reaction of the geese that were targeted, but of course, we were not in any position to find out if that were true. Buckshot was illegal then to use on Waterfowl, as were lead pellets of any size.

Spend time patterning your shogun. Then, spend time here reading the past posts on load development using BP. There is a wealth of information on this forum already, if you just go back a couple of years and read everything. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[PHI]

Thank you all for your help - just realized I can access older post too....

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Spot on as usual Paul, but I do take exception the your listing Improved Cylinder as 40%, it actually should be 50%+ and cylinder bore is just whatever it happens to be, that could indeed be 30% or more or less.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Joe: Other than with plastic shot cups, and modern shotgun cartridges, I have never seen an Improved cylinder throw 50 % patterns. 45% is about as good as I have never seen.

I know skeet shooters who purposely over load their cylinder bore barrels to spread the shot wider, faster, because of the short range of those clay targets( max. 22 yds). Inside 10 yards, donut holes can't get big enough to miss a target.

Thank you for your comments. Most shooters want to know how a good a pattern they can get far enough, and that is how I understood this poster's question. I suppose, to be fair, there always should be a caveat, and for the few who want wider patterns at close range, knowing how to do that can be useful information.

The only close range pattern questions I have gotten in the past 15 years relate to homeowners who choose to use a shotgun for home defense. They want to know what shot size to use, what gauge to use, and what choke is "Best". They are usually shocked to find that inside the small bedrooms found in most homes, the shot column is not likely to expand or " open up" much at all inside that room. They never consider the fact that at close range, you can actually MISS a man with your shotgun if you don't AIM it. Of course, very few men will survive being shot with a shotgun load of shot at close range. ( I know of only 1 man who did in my 40 + years of working in the criminal justice system as an investigator, and attorney.) Regardless of choke, or none, the average distance that a column of shot will travel before it begins to open up is 9 feet.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've never had nor wanted to have any experience with shotguns as weapons but only as hunting implements and works of art. I jumped on your description of Improved Cylinder choke because that happens to be my personal favorite.
When jug choking shotguns for improved cylinder my greatest difficulty was to stop cutting at ONLY 50%, it's very easy to pass that goal before you know it. :haha:
For my own hunting I find a 50% pattern to be most ideal. It is the most uniform and consistent degree of choke. For pattern testing at 40 yards I like two circles, the standard 30" circle with an inside circle of 21" diameter which has just half the area of the 30" circle. If the pattern were uniform from edge to edge there would be the same number of pellets in the inside circle as in the outer ring. That happens only with improved cylinder patterns of around 50%. True cylinder bore patterns tend to be quite ragged and irregular, often with fewer pellets in the center. Chokes tighter than improved cylinder will always show central thickening since the choke pulls pellets from the outer ring into the center circle. A full choke which puts 70% in the 30" circle will likely have 50% in the center and only 20% in the outer ring, perhaps the difference may be as much a 55/15. That's fine for aimed shots on stationary targets but on running or flying game it's a "miss or mangle" deal since the pattern center is so dense while the fringes are very sparse.
Improved cylinder is a great improvement over true cylinder bore in terms of pattern uniformity without the holes, ragged edges and irregular shapes common to cylinder bores, while still providing a large margin for error in placement.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I am glad that your experiences are different from my own. It gives other members here a good reason to do something most shooters rarely do- and that is to pattern their load properly, regardless of what "choke" size is on the barrel or choke tube.

I have used 30" and 20" circles when reading patterns on paper, but never did the math to figure out that a 21" circles is half the area of the 30" circle. You reminded me of that fact, and I thank you. I have patterned fixed Imp. Cylinder barrels, and I.C. choke tubes without the success you have had with your jug chokes. As I said before, the best patterns I could manage ran 45% in that 30" circle.

What yardage such patterns will allow clean kills often depends of the game birds you are taking- the smaller the bird, the better the chance of missing the bird altogether at longer yardage.

I worked up loads to take pheasants out to 30+ yards, but when shoot partridge, or other smaller birds chose shots at no more than 25 yards.

That is how I dealt with the "failure of expectations" with the IC chokes I tested, and used.

I am only sorry that you have stopped doing Jug Choke work for other shooters, as I very much admired that tools you made to do this. You may remember that when you posted pictures a year or two ago( now) showing the tool you made, I commented on it then. :hatsoff: :hatsoff: