What size balls? And does silk work?

[pipascus]

Hello,
I have a .58 caliber Mark Silver rifle from Jim Chambers.
Can anyone advise as to what size balls I should shoot in it, as well as a mold?
I'd like to get a bullet mold for it, but don't want to get the wrong size.

Also, does a silk patch really add accuracy and range, or is that a myth?

Thanks!

 

[Maven]

"40 extra yards!"

 

[Ontario47]

Silk patching may be passable in a rifle with with shallow rifling (silk material is usually thin) but this is mostly Hollywood. The difference in force required to load a silk patch compared to the same thickness cotton is barely noticeable. The force that pushes the ball out when fired is thousands of pounds.
The purpose of PRB (patched round ball) is to have the lands of the rifling grab the ball tight enough to be consistently accurate and with enough bulk in the patch to seal the gas behind the PRB to provide consistent range/ vertical accuracy.
The truth is found only at the range firing from a bench, with rest, at paper, and collecting and examining fired patching. Try swaged comercial balls .570 to .575 and cotton patching ,010 to .020 with a charge 50-70 grs FFG black powder to start. Hunting loads are a different subject.
If you can load your PRB with thumb pressure it is too loose (use larger ball). If it takes a mallet to load or the patch shows cuts from the rifling it is too tight. A slap of the hand on a ball starter (that does not hurt) is about right. If the patch shows burned thru scorch marks it is too thin.
Find a shooting area with other BP shooters, They will all be happy to help, but take all opinions with a grain of salt. Good luck and have fun! If it gets frustrating get out your .22 or pellet gun and come back another day.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The only place I heard that tale of using silk to get an extra 40 yards was a Hollywood director's decision ( Michael Mann for "last of the Mohicans") and has no basis in reality.

You should try a round ball of 0.570" with a canvas or denim patch of 0.022". Lubricant could be any of a variety of exotic concoctions. Simplest is spit, chew on that washed patch. Next is olive oil that was borrowed from the kitchen. Go to the dollar store for the cheapest olive oil you can find. Water with a squirt of liquid dishwashing soap will work as a lubricant. Windex will work too.

Wait on getting a mold until you determine the ball size that works best for you. You may need to try other patch materials and lubricants.

 

[rich pierce]

Good advice above. I never use patches under 0.016” thick with cut rifling. I’ve never found 0.010-0.014” patching to hold up.
I can usually make either a ball 0.005” or 0.010” under size work by varying patch thickness. If the lands are narrow and grooves wide I can use the larger ball and thick patch. If lands are wide then I often use a ball 0.010” under size.

With small calibers I can load bore size balls.

 

[SmokepoleSam]

Be careful at the dollar store, the one by me has olive oil that had only 15-20% olive oil.

 

[pipascus]

"40 extra yards!"

Yeah! Was watchhing Last of the Mohicans and heard "Hawkeye" say that. Figured it was Hollywood B.S., but thought maybe it made some difference somehow in accuracy.

 

[pipascus]

Silk patching may be passable in a rifle with with shallow rifling (silk material is usually thin) but this is mostly Hollywood. The difference in force required to load a silk patch compared to the same thickness cotton is barely noticeable. The force that pushes the ball out when fired is thousands of pounds.
The purpose of PRB (patched round ball) is to have the lands of the rifling grab the ball tight enough to be consistently accurate and with enough bulk in the patch to seal the gas behind the PRB to provide consistent range/ vertical accuracy.
The truth is found only at the range firing from a bench, with rest, at paper, and collecting and examining fired patching. Try swaged comercial balls .570 to .575 and cotton patching ,010 to .020 with a charge 50-70 grs FFG black powder to start. Hunting loads are a different subject.
If you can load your PRB with thumb pressure it is too loose (use larger ball). If it takes a mallet to load or the patch shows cuts from the rifling it is too tight. A slap of the hand on a ball starter (that does not hurt) is about right. If the patch shows burned thru scorch marks it is too thin.
Find a shooting area with other BP shooters, They will all be happy to help, but take all opinions with a grain of salt. Good luck and have fun! If it gets frustrating get out your .22 or pellet gun and come back another day.

Sounds good. Thank you!
How do you determine the thickness of the patch material?

I will look for swaged balls of those sizes.
What range is best to determine accuracy/ball size/patch type?
I want to be able to seat the ball without a ball starter.
Again, thank you!

 

[Grenadier1758]

But even that poor quality olive oil from the Dollar Store will suffice for patch lubrication. Note: I am not recommending replacing the kitchen use olive oil that was borrowed to test out a patch lubrication.

As far as the silk goes, I have been making the comment that Hawkeye didn't want the silk, he just wanted to see Cora's ankles. Now, if he had asked for a piece of her linen petticoat, that would have been much more believable.

You want to start close up (15 yards) to see where the balls are hitting. Then go out to 25 yards. Start with 70 grain volume of black powder. Do not make adjustments to your sights until you have a load of ball , patch, lubricant and powder charge. Do your final adjustment at 50 yards to be a couple of inches above the point of aim. A 58 caliber rifle will have an arching trajectory, so your effective range for hunting should about 100 yards

 

[rich pierce]

Sounds good. Thank you!
How do you determine the thickness of the patch material?

I will look for swaged balls of those sizes.
What range is best to determine accuracy/ball size/patch type?
I want to be able to seat the ball without a ball starter.
Again, thank you!

In my experience seating the ball without a short starter is only possible with a loose combination that will yield mediocre accuracy at best.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Since you want to thumb start the ball, you will see the advantage of getting several ball sizes and thicknesses of patch material before spending money on a mold.

Pay attention to Rich.

 

[tenngun]

If you hang up a silk kerchief and shoot it the silk can move out of the way. It’s slick. As patching it won’t hold a ball and slides around it.
yes I had to try it

 

[Ontario47]

I judge the thickness of patch material (pre-lubed) with a micrometer that has a torque limiting thumb screw/clutch so that the crushing force is uniform. A $10.00 digital caliper from Harbor Freight is good enough with a little practice. Buy some patches that say what they think the thickness is and see how close your test tool comes. Again the truth is at the range, and with your expectations. Hunting deer cleanly is far different than winning a bullseye match at a known distance.

 

[Ontario47]

If you hang up a silk kerchief and shoot it the silk can move out of the way. It’s slick. As patching it won’t hold a ball and slides around it.

Asian medieval warriors would (supposedly) wear silk undergarments with the claim that an arrow head would not cut through the silk, and if wounded you could use the silk dragged into the wound to cleanly pull the arrow out. Think I would rather have a flak jacket

 

[pipascus]

The only place I heard that tale of using silk to get an extra 40 yards was a Hollywood director's decision ( Michael Mann for "last of the Mohicans") and has no basis in reality.

You should try a round ball of 0.570" with a canvas or denim patch of 0.022". Lubricant could be any of a variety of exotic concoctions. Simplest is spit, chew on that washed patch. Next is olive oil that was borrowed from the kitchen. Go to the dollar store for the cheapest olive oil you can find. Water with a squirt of liquid dishwashing soap will work as a lubricant. Windex will work too.

Wait on getting a mold until you determine the ball size that works best for you. You may need to try other patch materials and lubricants.

Yeah I heard that line in LOTM and thought the "extra 40 yards" was BS, but also considered maybe there was some improvement in accuracy or even ease of inserting the ball. The fact mentioned above about the pressures in that barrel compared to the material make sense.

For lubricant I was thinking of soaking strips of the patch material in something like a bee's-wax/olive oil blend and hanging it from my horn strap so I can cut a piece off as I need it. But how do you determine the thickness of the patch material?

Thanks!

 

[Intosomthin]

MY opinoin, and its just that... unless u want clover leafs... patch material dun matter...long as it greasy n tight, my opinion once again... n not a load to left in gun...

 

[Cattman]

nothing better than pure linen or hemp cloth. i tried silk after the movie came out and it burned badl;y.

 

[SDSmlf]

Hello,
I have a .58 caliber Mark Silver rifle from Jim Chambers.
Can anyone advise as to what size balls I should shoot in it, as well as a mold?
I'd like to get a bullet mold for it, but don't want to get the wrong size.

Also, does a silk patch really add accuracy and range, or is that a myth?

Thanks!

What did Jim Chambers recommend?

 

[Ontario47]

Patch thickness? See above, the timing and order of replies appears out of sequence. My micrometer method compresses the material a lot. The correct thickness is determined by the ease/difficulty of loading, the expected accuracy, and the condition of the fired patch.

 

[Grenadier1758]

For lubricant I was thinking of soaking strips of the patch material in something like a bee's-wax/olive oil blend and hanging it from my horn strap so I can cut a piece off as I need it. But how do you determine the thickness of the patch material?

Thanks!

Use a double boiler method to heat the bee's wax and olive oil to mix it up. In hot weather you want more wax, up to 50/50. In cold weather the wax and olive oil is too stiff and you want more oil up to 1 part wax to 7 parts of oil. I keep it in a tin until I need to use it. You will need to wipe between shots as that lubricant is likely to form a crusty fouling ring at the breech.

Ultimately you determine the proper patch thickness through load development by eventually selecting the patch material and lubricant that results in acceptable on target accuracy and loading effort.

You will need a caliper capable of measuring to the thousandths of an inch. Your Mark Silver rifle should has 0.016" round bottom grooves as indicated in the Jim Chamber's website. You need to measure the land to land diameter of the bore. You want to have an easy thumb start to load so get a ball 0.015" under the bore diameter. That means you need patch material that compresses easily to 0.008" and fills the grooves. Starting point would be 0.024" cotton canvas measured after washing. For target accuracy that will need to be loaded with a short starter, get a ball 0.010" under bore diameter and use the same thick patch.