What Size Mould for a 2nd Short Land Bess?

[CrackStock]

I have a Military Heritage 2nd Land Pattern Bess and want to get Dixie to make me one of their custom moulds that I can clip as instructed here by ClayPipe.

What I want to know is what diameter to order. The inner diameter reads .747. Any suggestions?

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

You need to run this one past Musket Man and move it to the smoothbore section. Those guys are always shooting pumpkin balls out of their besses and know exactly what you need! Some of them never get this far down the list.

:front:

 

[Stumpkiller]

First question would be what are you intending to use for loads. Paper cartridges or cloth patched? What kind of lube? Saliva? Liquid? Grease/wax?

I'm not sure Dixie makes the molds in 0.001" increments. But, if that is the case, I would have to go with 0.732", which will still be an easy loading gun but a good, snug fit. Rifles generally work well with an 0.010" undersize ball, but the smoothies have no grooves to accept the patching and fouling.

When you consider the patch on either side of the ball as it rests in the barrel: 0.017" + 0.732" + 0.017" = 0.764", or a 58% compression of the patch to fit the bore. That will be a very tight fit for a smoothbore and should get the most out of accuracy for you.

Dropping back to 0.725" or so will give much easier loading, especially as the fouling builds up in repeated firing, but may cost you some accuracy.

The originals used a very undersize ball, as accuracy was secondary to volume of fire. In my Bess I used a 0.012" undersize ball, and it worked very well for both cotton patched and paper cartridges. I was using a lube of equal parts Crisco/Beeswax/Tallow, which is nowhere near as slick as the liquid moose milk or my Moose Snot brews. I'd go with the 0.732", or 0.735" if you feel brave.

 

[musketman]

I run two sizes in my bess...

.735 and .715

I load up a .715 patched (.015) round ball for the first two or three shots and then a waxed dipped unpatched .735 round ball there after...

I melt beeswax and dip the .735 balls a few times to build a coating on them use the flat of the ball to stand them on to dry...

What this does for me is once the barrel is fouled from the first three shots, the fouling along with the waxed roundballs will act as a crude patch, eliminating the need to clean in the field until I'm done for the day...

It works for me but it does require that you carry both sizes of roundballs, easy to tell them apart, one is waxed, the other is not...

 

[sherpadoug]

Historically the standard British ball was .690 for a Bess. Seriously undersized for accuracy, but minimized the chance of a stuck ball in the heat of battle.

 

[schrivener]

My Pedersoli bess worked best with .715 if I was patching, and .690 if I was loading cartridges. .735 with a very thin patch might work, but I think you'd risk burn through with that thin a patch. For patch, I used Walmart pillow ticking. Loaded well, even after fouling, as long as the patch was well greased.

As has been stated, the mil spec mould was .690, but they were loading from cartridges. Unless one was a skirmisher in a rifle unit, one did not carry a powder horn or load from the pouch, you used cartridges.

No experience with the Dixie moulds, but Rapine makes fine .715 bag mould, and I cast a BUNCH of ball with that.

 

[Stumpkiller]

You guys do patch loose. I use 0.715" in my single-barrel 12 gauge (0.729" bore) and 0.690 in the same when I'm just taking it easy. (That one even worked when I tried plastic shot cups just to see what it would do - don't tell anyone I used a "sabot" :nono.

It is a tight fit, but with no rifling it never gets to be a chore if the fouling is kept under control.

I've never experienced burn-through with a smoothbore, though I do make it a habit to push a nitro-card down to seperate the powder from the wet patch, and I also dip the ball end of my paper cartridges in beeswax.

 

[rschissler]

it never gets to be a chore if the fouling is kept under control.

I still haven't shot my first flintlock shot yet, so how do you know if fouling is under control or not? Does the barrel get gummed up and sticky after so many shots? What is the procedure anyway for cleaning while shooting? After so many shots, do you just run a cleaning patch down the barrel and then resume shooting again?

 

[Rat]

The bore on my Bess seems to mic out right at .750", and I've been shooting a .735" ball with a thin (.010") patch.

With that combo, Swiss powder, (110 grains) a wonder wad and Wonder lube 1000+, I can get about six shots without wiping, but shots #5 and #6 go down pretty hard. I can also load the first shot into the clean barrel with a .018" patch, which I always do.

However, after shooting that combo for a while now, I think a .725" ball, with the .018" patch would be ideal, or more better, in my bore, which again seems to mic out right at .750".

I guess when fouling is "out of control" is when you can't get the ball down the bore eaisly, or at all. Smoothbores are a little more difficult in this respect than a rifle, generally speaking.

Yes, when you shoot "X" number of shots, and it becomes very difficult to ram a ball down the barrel, you just wipe the bore a couple of times with your favorite cleaning solution, (mine is Hoppe's #9+) wipe the bore dry, and go back to shooting. Some people will wipe between each shot, some guns can be fired many more times, depends on how tight your ball/patch combo is, how dirty your powder burns, and what you use for lube.

Rat

 

[Redleg130th]

I have been using a .735 stock Lyman mold for paper cartrige ball. I can fire about 15-20 shots before it gets to fouled to load without cleaning. (ruined a ramrod by tring to load a round in a very fouled barrel, now on my list of stuff not to do ). Swabbing the barrel with a baby wipe cleans well to continue fireing, or just use a worm with a wet cloth for the same effect.

I have a Pedersoli Bess.

I have been using them unlubed, but I like the beeswax idea. I may try that.

 

[CrackStock]

Thanks for all the responses.

I will likely shoot paper patched ball at times, but my main interest is a good single shot at a deer and to use for living history events as a demo.

I do not think that I will be shooting long strings of shots and I generally wipe between shots, so the .732 will likely be the choice or the .735 in as Stump says, the options are limited.

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[Stumpkiller]

Something else to consider, and I've done this, is to keep a supply of two different sized balls (IN WELL MARKED BAGS). If you go to an event and need to keep up live fire (and this would be unusual) you can use the smaller balls. No need to buy molds, just lay aside four bags of 25 per, and use a different color thread on the cartridges (if English style).

For hunting and target, the slower rate of taking care to load with a juicy patch or paper rolled ball is not so big a problem. I kept the tow on the worm in waxed paper in my pouch, and it was a short few added steps to wipe the bore with it.

If you shoot more than three shots a day big-game hunting with a flinter you're standing too far away. :winking:

Something else I do when hunting with dipped cartridges. I make an inner "cup" out of waxed paper wrapped around the forming dowel and set this inside before adding the powder. This keeps the oils in the beeswax from leaching into the powder, and also helps keep water out when carried in a cartridge box.

Handle the cartridge, bite off the end, pour the powder, pull the wax paper sleeve out of the cartridge with your index finger and use it was wadding, set the ball in closed-end down, thumb start, tear off the excess paper over the muzzle and pocket it (no littering!), then ram the ball home.

The wax paper "wad" then seperates the powder from the beeswax on the ball. I fret such things because I may leave the gun loaded for up to three days if I don't get a shot and I haven't been rained on. Not the best system if you hunt where there is a brush fire danger, as the wax paper burns very well.

 

[musketman]

Handle the cartridge, bite off the end, pour the powder, pull the wax paper sleeve out of the cartridge with your index finger and use it was wadding,

That's good advise from someone who gets his powder wet 'cus he has to gum the paper open...

Stumpkiller, remember to put in your false tooth before shootin... :crackup:

 

[CrackStock]

Wait, I thought that you were required to have TWO good teeth to be an infantryman! How else can you tear open the cartridge?

LOL

Thanks for the advice StumpKiller. I will have to prepare some new fangled cartridges to put in my box. Now that white strap is a bit of a problem for hunting...

YMHS,
CrackStock

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's why the wax paper. I gotta work that cartridge like a Druggist's Tuck to soften it up enough to tear.

I is gonna turn my sloe eye on you and bring down curses. You know very well I gots perfect teeth. The one on the top meshes with the one on the bottom just right.

 

[schrivener]

I think folks make this more complicated than necessary some times. At a smoothbore shoot a couple of years ago, we had plate sized paper targets at 25 yards. The scenario was defense of the fort. You had 5 minutes to get as many shots into the paper as possible. The guy who won was using a cut down 1st Model and cartridges, .690 ball. He put 11 in the paper plate, and 9 others around the plate in those 5 minutes. We were required to ram the ball home, couldn't just pour and thump like you do in tacticals sometimes, since we were using ball, you had to ram. He didn't wipe at any time during the event. I had 4 in the plate, and got 6 other shots off. I was loading from the horn and pouch. With good lube, and decent powder, you can shoot, and shoot accurately for a while without swabbing. You ARE more consistent, and loading is easier to be certain, but you can get away without it. If I do swab between shots, it's a piece of patch, stuck in my cheek while I'm shooting, and then back to it. I'm not a big fan of chemicals or whatever :results: water works. Nothing in BP residue that is not water soluble.

At one event, the site had a dugout canoe that they were working on, and had it filled with water to keep from splitting. After the tactical and demonstration, there was a crowd of militia and regulars standing around the canoe, submerging barrels, or getting tow wet. Crowd thought that was as interesting as anything else we did.

Advantage to using tow, when it gets too cruddy, let it dry, and use it to start fires. Carbon and unburned powder works well for firestarting.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I think folks make this more complicated than necessary some times. At a smoothbore shoot a couple of years ago, we had plate sized paper targets at 25 yards. The scenario was defense of the fort. You had 5 minutes to get as many shots into the paper as possible. The guy who won was using a cut down 1st Model and cartridges, .690 ball. He put 11 in the paper plate, and 9 others around the plate in those 5 minutes.

Agreed. Nothing like cutting loose for the hex of it with a Bess just to bother cans or an FBI Silhouette target at 25 or 50 yards.

But, CrackStock was specifically interested in hunting. 11 hits just don't justify the 9 potentially wounded deer.

The originals were never meant to be a hunting weapon with a single ball, so it takes a little work to tame them to that pursuit. It's no coincedence that the civilian smoothbores became known as "buck-n-ball" guns.

I know that wasn't your point, but am just pointing out myself: there are times when good enough is good enough, and times when it all depends on a single, good shot.

CrackStock: the white cartridge box strap . . . I made myself a black belt box for that very reason. I don't show no white hereabouts from September to February, and I'm careful the rest of the year as well. We get some excitable types around here (the ones that never stop shooting so long as there are rounds in the magazine. :

 

[CrackStock]

Thanks for all your good info everyone.

Stump Killer was right that I was looking for a hunting load, but I learned from all of the discussion.

SK -- I was joking with the white strap comment. The bright shiny Bess is bad enough. I was working on making a belt carried cartridge box as well. Been using a brown bag for a while.

CS

 

[Stumpkiller]

Coat the Bess with paste wax but don't buff it shiny. It dulls the glare, but is easy to get back to "white" later.

I used to rub mine with apple slices to tone the metal Flitz takes it right bad to shiny white when you feel the need.

Like a fool I sold her. There will be another.