What to do with a Spanish barrel by Bis

[dave_person]

Rick,
Thank you very much! That is a beauty. Apparently, Bis occasionally used Roman locks like that as well as Al a Mode Spanish locks. I like the look of the Roman lock but the Spanish always considered them inferior to the Patilla. The House of Bourbon influence I suppose and I don't mean Kentucky bourbon. Do you think that stock is cherry?

I finished with the barrel for a while and will put it aside until I figure out a plan and start my drawings. I filled the lug dovetail.

I also cleaned up the bore and outside a little more.

Look at the detail in the iron chiseling. Unbelievable!

dave

 

[rickystl]

Hi Dave

Barrel: That's coming along very nice. Yes, that chiseling at the transition is remarkable in it's detail. So well executed. Can't even tell there ever was a dovetail. LOL

Stock Wood: I'll ask if he knows what wood was used in that photo. The Spanish government demanded that their military stocks be made with walnut only. I suppose European/English walnut in this case. And it appears the gunsmiths during the period followed this decree with their sporting guns as well.

Locks: This is where it gets interesting. LOL Spain controlled Southern Italy from the late 17th Century till the Mid-19th Century. Due to this influence, it's not surprising most of the guns from the South turn up with typical patilla style Spanish locks. However, the Roman style miquelet lock and French style flintlock were more in vogue in Central and Northern Italy. But this is why you often find cross-over styling between Spanish and Italian guns from the period.
Both the Spanish and Roman miquelets began development at roughly the same time.

Hope this helps. Again, that barrel is a beauty !!

Rick

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rick,
Yes, it helps a lot and I am aware of some of that history. Lavin describes a lot of Madrid guns stocked in cherry during the 17th century but he does mention that walnut began to dominate later. I saw one early 18th century Madrid gun on an auction website and it was clearly stocked in cherry. It was very attractive because the coloring was beautiful. Do you have a copy of "Espingarda Perfeyta" published in 1713? I realize the authors were Portuguese but they describe the various locks and rate them. Of course they prefer their own local spinoff of the Patilla lock. They state the Roman lock is weakly designed and prone to failure, which is also their conclusion concerning the French flintlock!! It is fun reading. With respect to stocks they assert walnut MUST be used. They admit cherry was used by some stockers but it is inferior because it must be colored like maple. This stuff in so much fun and the historical research is a huge part of every one of my projects.

I fixed the breech plug by heating the bolster bright red with my welding torch and then bending it straight. The plug is wrought iron so no hardening took place. Originally, the plug bolster was under cut below the top surface and that top edge peened to make it contact the barrel flat tight and seamlessly. It is interesting because that kind of short cut would never be tolerated on a good quality British gun despite the fact that it does not matter at all with respect to safety. The plug itself is well fitted to the barrel. This kind of project is really fun.


dave

 

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are images of my original a flintlock converted to percussion which maybe of some help .
Feltwad

 

[Eterry]

Hi Rick,
Yes, it helps a lot and I am aware of some of that history. Lavin describes a lot of Madrid guns stocked in cherry during the 17th century but he does mention that walnut began to dominate later. I saw one early 18th century Madrid gun on an auction website and it was clearly stocked in cherry. It was very attractive because the coloring was beautiful. Do you have a copy of "Espingarda Perfeyta" published in 1713? I realize the authors were Portuguese but they describe the various locks and rate them. Of course they prefer their own local spinoff of the Patilla lock. They state the Roman lock is weakly designed and prone to failure, which is also their conclusion concerning the French flintlock!! It is fun reading. With respect to stocks they assert walnut MUST be used. They admit cherry was used by some stockers but it is inferior because it must be colored like maple. This stuff in so much fun and the historical research is a huge part of every one of my projects.

I fixed the breech plug by heating the bolster bright red with my welding torch and then bending it straight. The plug is wrought iron so no hardening took place. Originally, the plug bolster was under cut below the top surface and that top edge peened to make it contact the barrel flat tight and seamlessly. It is interesting because that kind of short cut would never be tolerated on a good quality British gun despite the fact that it does not matter at all with respect to safety. The plug itself is well fitted to the barrel. This kind of project is really fun.


dave

Dave, I agree you should make a full stock Fowler with a left hand flintlock and send to me for a 10 year field trial...

Seriously, I bought a box of books recently, IIRC there's a book of Spanish military arms and armor.
When I get home i'll check and see, then get back with you.

 

[Rudyard]

Nice barrel in good hands if what your calling a' bolster 'Ide call a 'hutt' .The Alonzo Martinez I stocked up had the common tang and also had the Marquarte sickle along with Allonso;s marks .I got it up to resemble a rather old fashioned full stocked English gun & wedded to an original Ketland & Co lock despite his working dates being later the market for the older full stock still had offerings of the older styles.
Not every crusty old bat like me wanted or perhaps never saw the London fashions . I aged it down to match the barrel & will try get a photo sent .The Roxas barrel bore deep English proofs like they where trying to punch through ! but had the common false breech. Spanish iron ore & skill produced good barrels and like the Turkish barrels where highly esteemed so its not uncommon to meet with either on English guns if more pre mid 18 th c . I recall a big gun Museum in Cody Wyoming had all sorts of machine disgorged guns but had an undoubtably English gun labled ;Spanish' .But then Iv'e seen undoubtable Indian guns labled ' Chinees' . Though I shouldn't complain I once made out like a bandit catologueing a major museum. No degrees ,no PHDs just knew what I was looking at and they needed some one who did .
Regards Rudyard

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Dave,
You are so lucky to have that Bis barrel. It's a stunning piece of workmanship. I can't wait to see how the final product turns out.

 

[Sam squanch]

I’d just duct tape it in an old CVA stock and call it good….

 

[dave_person]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for your notes. I was offline for a week because my hard drive died and the computer was in the shop all last week. I learned and surmised a bit more about this barrel. Assuming it is not a counterfeit, which I do not believe it is, I suspect it was made by Bis before 1713 when he was directed by the King of Spain to work only for him and his household. It is definitely not embellished like work for the royals so I suspect it was made between 1690 and 1713. As a Bis product it may be one made from old Biscayan horseshoes. The iron is very tough but files and polishes wonderfully. It is not like our modern barrel steels. It takes a high polish quickly with a color more silver like than steel. I wrote previously that the breech plug threads appear to be swaged and the plug requires the requisite 7 turns to tighten as described by Neal in his book on Spanish guns. The original touch hole was lined with an iron bushing. This was the only part of the barrel that had severe corrosion. I drilled it out and installed a "white lightning" liner. The liner is tight and has 32 threads per inch, which given the thickness of the barrel wall, engages plenty of threads. I also put a first layer of gilding on the barrel marks to prevent any further corroding. I sealed that gilding with shellac. When finishing the barrel, I will remove the shellac and add more layers of gold. The marks will be clearly identifiable but past corrosion will make them a little fuzzy. So what to do. First, I won't get to this project until next year. I have too much work for others in the way to get started sooner. Right now I am tending toward mounting the barrel to a Catalan stock with a Patilla lock. Many of Bis' surviving work have Madrid stocks and either locks al mode or Roman locks. But that is mostly work he did for the Spanish king, who was a French Bourbon and preferred French styled guns. Hence, much of Bis' output looks more French than Spanish but not all by any means. I found several firearms with Bis barrels and perhaps made by Bis, with Catalan stocks and Patilla locks. I want to use a Patilla because they are such good locks. I've had the pleasure of shooting guns with them made by Brian Anderson and there are no locks more reliable and economical on flints ever made. I love English flintlocks but the Patilla lock gives any other design a run for its money with respect to reliability. Plus, it requires much less wood removed from the stock so they are stronger. I also like the styling of the Catalan stocks. Bis barrels show up on guns with that design but of course it is unclear if he made the gun or someone recycled a Bis barrel. I've decided, at least tentatively, to not make an English fowler with a Spanish barrel. I love those guns but I'll learn so many new things building a Spanish gun. I understand completely how to mount a Spanish barrel on an English gun complete with inlet barrel bands, which I don't think anyone has done since the 18th century. Look at the photos below. Anyway, I am months away from this project and am not completely decided on it.

dave

 

[rickystl]

Hi Dave

For what it's worth department........my vote is for the Catalan stock and Patilla lock. It's not like you don't already have any English guns to shoot. LOL
Should be a fun project for next year. Keep us informed with your thoughts.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Apologies for dragging up this old thread one and all, but Dave,
Have you made any progress with this gun?
Its a lovely barrel, and you are doing the loops exactly right. You knew this already though!

I am far too late in this to vote for what style, and can only confess a high end gun by one of the English makers with a barrel such as this,(Benjamin Griffin comes to mind) is to me The most elegant form of sporting gun ever created.