What to do?
- Thread starter Boyd
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Tough call, but I would, especially if you can "unrepair". Takes a good craftsman to properly age the new wood to match the old, & I have seen old barrel bands at various antique arms parts dealers. Try S&S or Numrich; I've gontten some really off-the-wall parts from both.
Have an 1816 musket in about the same shape, but barrel was cut off (gee, I paid 50 bucks for that too). Been considering getting new stock & barrel, but minimum cost would be about $350. As is, it's an interesting piece of Americana; a musket converted to more peaceful use as a shotgun. Bannerman used to do this & sell them for something like $1: would have to find my old catalog reprint to check. Also have an 1842 that was shortened, w/ front barrel band put back on & held w/ a small square nail. Still shoots, & the lock internals are wonderful to behold. I have a repro '42 I could swap parts w/, but like it as is. And congratulations on your collection: as an amateur arms collector, I know how scare these RW firearms are, & they are a real piece of American history.
Have an 1816 musket in about the same shape, but barrel was cut off (gee, I paid 50 bucks for that too). Been considering getting new stock & barrel, but minimum cost would be about $350. As is, it's an interesting piece of Americana; a musket converted to more peaceful use as a shotgun. Bannerman used to do this & sell them for something like $1: would have to find my old catalog reprint to check. Also have an 1842 that was shortened, w/ front barrel band put back on & held w/ a small square nail. Still shoots, & the lock internals are wonderful to behold. I have a repro '42 I could swap parts w/, but like it as is. And congratulations on your collection: as an amateur arms collector, I know how scare these RW firearms are, & they are a real piece of American history.
I guess it depends on what you want.
Right now, you have a collection of old gun parts, and not much more.
If I were you, I would repair it. It isn't like it wouldn't be noticable because it most likely would be, and I'm sure you wouldn't try to pawn it off as a marvlous gun which is worth a fortune.
I have a 1842 Springfield which I repaired, and I'm not a bit sorry.
When I bought it it had the area around the tang filled with plastic wood, and looked like this:
I figured anything I would do couldn't look much worse so I removed the filler.
The finished repair is noticable, but it still looks a lot better than it did.
If you want to read more of that story follow this link:
1842 SPRINGFIELD PROJECT
Right now, you have a collection of old gun parts, and not much more.
If I were you, I would repair it. It isn't like it wouldn't be noticable because it most likely would be, and I'm sure you wouldn't try to pawn it off as a marvlous gun which is worth a fortune.
I have a 1842 Springfield which I repaired, and I'm not a bit sorry.
When I bought it it had the area around the tang filled with plastic wood, and looked like this:
I figured anything I would do couldn't look much worse so I removed the filler.
The finished repair is noticable, but it still looks a lot better than it did.
If you want to read more of that story follow this link:
1842 SPRINGFIELD PROJECT
Fergetful Jones,
When I bought my collection over a 12 year period (way back then) they were getting harder each year to find. I had to quite because I had what I wanted but mostly the cost was going crazy.
Seems harder to find these days and I don't like the prices much either.
Zonie,
That is a nice repair job. I don't think you had much of a choice because someone already messed around with it. I think you did the right thing for sure.
As for mine it is also messed around with, but it is sort of what was done to a lot of these guns back then. I just didn't want to jump into it too fast. Didn't want to be the guy who refinished the table and now it is worth $5000 instead of $500,000 if you know what I mean.
This however should be reversable. I know just the right person to do the job also. He is a friend and makes a lot of guns. He's one of those who use tabacco and alcohol and a bunch of other stuff to stain the stocks. I don't know what else, but he been doing it for a long time also.
I would never try to sell something like this as a proper gun. I consider that as stealing and anyone doing it is a thief. As you can tell, I have run into a few of these types before. Being my first (antique)gun, I will never sell it but, I would like to hang it on my wall!!!!
Thanks guys I apreciate the comments and opinions here. maybe there will be some more.
Darryl
When I bought my collection over a 12 year period (way back then) they were getting harder each year to find. I had to quite because I had what I wanted but mostly the cost was going crazy.
Seems harder to find these days and I don't like the prices much either.
Zonie,
That is a nice repair job. I don't think you had much of a choice because someone already messed around with it. I think you did the right thing for sure.
As for mine it is also messed around with, but it is sort of what was done to a lot of these guns back then. I just didn't want to jump into it too fast. Didn't want to be the guy who refinished the table and now it is worth $5000 instead of $500,000 if you know what I mean.
This however should be reversable. I know just the right person to do the job also. He is a friend and makes a lot of guns. He's one of those who use tabacco and alcohol and a bunch of other stuff to stain the stocks. I don't know what else, but he been doing it for a long time also.
I would never try to sell something like this as a proper gun. I consider that as stealing and anyone doing it is a thief. As you can tell, I have run into a few of these types before. Being my first (antique)gun, I will never sell it but, I would like to hang it on my wall!!!!
Thanks guys I apreciate the comments and opinions here. maybe there will be some more.
Darryl
Your project sounds doable. As mentioned, no repair of this type can be so well hidden as to allow the gun to be passed off as an in-tact original which is the sticking point in re-doing old guns. Some gunsmiths even mark the barrel bottom with their initials and the date of the repair to prevent just this problem. Many old guns are best kept as they are but in this case I'd say the repair would be warranted. :imo:
Darryl: You probably know a lot more about these things than I do, but IMO, unless you have a great sentimental attachment to it, I see no reason not to fix it.
If you were going to remove the hard rust or the patina and rebrown the barrel or the lock, or if you were going to sand out all of the nicks and dings in the wood and put a nice coat of Tru-Oil on it, I would be the first to say DONT. But as long as you are leaving the existing finishes, I don't see how this is any different than my removing the plastic wood from my gun.
In removing that plastic wood I did destroy some of the guns history. From the condition of it, it had to have been on there for 45-50 years, but I figured that it (the gun) wouldn't mind loosing that part of its' past.
As I say, I don't know that much about antique values, but as I understand it, if something is original and in a condition which one would expect it to be in after 200+years it borders on being criminal to remove and or refinish it to look new.
If on the other hand it is just plain broken, it does no harm to fix it as long as the adjacent areas are left in thier untouched condition.
eace:
If you were going to remove the hard rust or the patina and rebrown the barrel or the lock, or if you were going to sand out all of the nicks and dings in the wood and put a nice coat of Tru-Oil on it, I would be the first to say DONT. But as long as you are leaving the existing finishes, I don't see how this is any different than my removing the plastic wood from my gun.
In removing that plastic wood I did destroy some of the guns history. From the condition of it, it had to have been on there for 45-50 years, but I figured that it (the gun) wouldn't mind loosing that part of its' past.
As I say, I don't know that much about antique values, but as I understand it, if something is original and in a condition which one would expect it to be in after 200+years it borders on being criminal to remove and or refinish it to look new.
If on the other hand it is just plain broken, it does no harm to fix it as long as the adjacent areas are left in thier untouched condition.
eace:I once came into possession of an original Nicholas Hawk rifle that had 10" bobbed from the barrel. When I first got the rifle I thought it had been shortened in the 19th century to make it easier to carry on horse back. On closer examination and the use of one of those cotton swabs on a piece of wood, I found relatively fresh hack saw shavings in the bore.
The rifle was in very good condition, with a very good bore. I believe that someone was shooting the rifle and somehow shattered the fore stock and rather than repair the wood cut the barrel back to match the wood, moved the nose cap back, and eliminated one of the ram rod pipes. I had no problem with welding on a section of barrel to the proper length and splicing on new wood as well as replacing the missing pipe. I felt this was a proper restoration of an abused rifle.
I also finished a restoration of a Springfield Mod. 1898 rifle a couple of weeks ago that had had been sporterized by having the stock cut about 3" in front of the rear barrel band. I replaced the missing wood by making a joint under the rear band and replaced the missing upper barrel band. I stained the new wood to match and added a few minor dings to match the original stock. No one at the gun show this weekend knew it was a restored rifle until I told them so.
I think you can restore the gun and not hurt the value, in fact it would probably increase it somewhat since at least it would look complete.
Just my opinion FWIW.
Regards, Dave
The rifle was in very good condition, with a very good bore. I believe that someone was shooting the rifle and somehow shattered the fore stock and rather than repair the wood cut the barrel back to match the wood, moved the nose cap back, and eliminated one of the ram rod pipes. I had no problem with welding on a section of barrel to the proper length and splicing on new wood as well as replacing the missing pipe. I felt this was a proper restoration of an abused rifle.
I also finished a restoration of a Springfield Mod. 1898 rifle a couple of weeks ago that had had been sporterized by having the stock cut about 3" in front of the rear barrel band. I replaced the missing wood by making a joint under the rear band and replaced the missing upper barrel band. I stained the new wood to match and added a few minor dings to match the original stock. No one at the gun show this weekend knew it was a restored rifle until I told them so.
I think you can restore the gun and not hurt the value, in fact it would probably increase it somewhat since at least it would look complete.
Just my opinion FWIW.
Regards, Dave
I am suprised at the responces. I though I might get pounded for even thinking of restoration.
You know how restoration and antiques are. However we are not in the furnature buisness.
I am very apreciative of your comments and I am going to add the front stock on.
Now as far as shooting it????? Well, it is old???
Thank You!
Darryl
You know how restoration and antiques are. However we are not in the furnature buisness.
I am very apreciative of your comments and I am going to add the front stock on.
Now as far as shooting it????? Well, it is old???
Thank You!
Darryl
Guest
Restoration and refinishing are seperate issues.
We are not talking about taking a fine and scarce origional and stripping all the origional finish from it, chopping down the barrel and hacking away at the stock in an attempt to "modernize" the gun.
We are talking about a repair that returns an item to its origional condition for use or eduactional purpose. Blending the new into the old, not making the old look new!
You do not have a one of a kind item. Hundreds of thousands of these muskets were imported to the U.S. The value of origional Charlivilles in average condition is not much more than the value of new production repros!
This is one of those items that you see on the Antiques Road Show where the guy brings in his treasured and valued family heirloom and finds out his $50 gun is actually worth...$50!
Unless you are a skilled builder and familiar with the restoration process I would go slowly with the duplication of wood and metal.
The standard rule of restoration is to never do anything to an item that can not be undone.
It was a very good idea to ask first. I would urge you to seek other opinions from hands on apraisers.
We are just guys on the computer. If you continue reading from these threads you will become convinced, by some of the rediculious comments and answers, that many of us have never fired a gun in our lives!
Just seek out people that really know what they are dealing with. The guy at the local gun shop probably does not. Likewise, the local antiques dealer probably does not. If either of them do know guns they will always undervalue an item in hopes of adding to the value of their own collection. Find a museum with a reasonable firearms collection and befriend the curator. He will probably have nothing to lose or gain and a more ethical attitude.
:hatsoff:
We are not talking about taking a fine and scarce origional and stripping all the origional finish from it, chopping down the barrel and hacking away at the stock in an attempt to "modernize" the gun.
We are talking about a repair that returns an item to its origional condition for use or eduactional purpose. Blending the new into the old, not making the old look new!
You do not have a one of a kind item. Hundreds of thousands of these muskets were imported to the U.S. The value of origional Charlivilles in average condition is not much more than the value of new production repros!
This is one of those items that you see on the Antiques Road Show where the guy brings in his treasured and valued family heirloom and finds out his $50 gun is actually worth...$50!
Unless you are a skilled builder and familiar with the restoration process I would go slowly with the duplication of wood and metal.
The standard rule of restoration is to never do anything to an item that can not be undone.
It was a very good idea to ask first. I would urge you to seek other opinions from hands on apraisers.
We are just guys on the computer. If you continue reading from these threads you will become convinced, by some of the rediculious comments and answers, that many of us have never fired a gun in our lives!
Just seek out people that really know what they are dealing with. The guy at the local gun shop probably does not. Likewise, the local antiques dealer probably does not. If either of them do know guns they will always undervalue an item in hopes of adding to the value of their own collection. Find a museum with a reasonable firearms collection and befriend the curator. He will probably have nothing to lose or gain and a more ethical attitude.
:hatsoff:
"You do not have a one of a kind item. Hundreds of thousands of these muskets were imported to the U.S. The value of origional Charlivilles in average condition is not much more than the value of new production repros!"
I can buy repro of 1777's for $500 to $1000.
Is there somewhere I'm not aware of selling original 1777's and 1763's for that price or close?
Darryl
I can buy repro of 1777's for $500 to $1000.
Is there somewhere I'm not aware of selling original 1777's and 1763's for that price or close?
Darryl
