What's happened to muzzleloading?

[loophole]

A little background. I built my first longrifle in 1975 and was very active in shooting and buckskinning for the next 20 years. In the '80's and early '90's I went to a couple of NMLRA rendezvous each year, and weekend camps and shoots all year long. Some friends and I packed in stuff each fall to set up a "skin out" primitive longhunter camp where we lived 1790 for a week. We went to shoots in state parks in SC and Georgia, and got permission to stage a walk-in camp in the National Forest where we did an all day woods walk that covered 3 or 4 miles.
We tried reenacting, but we couldn't abide not shooting all weekend and answering foolish questions from pilgrims who had no knowledge of or interest in history, but just saw us a actors at a miniature Disney world.

10 or 12 years ago I got interested in other things and quit doing muzzle loading altogether. Things happened in my personal life and I had other commitments. . . .

Well, last fall I decided to build another rifle (a Hawken I always wanted but which never fit with my Eastern gear), one thing led to another, and I decided to get back into buckskinning and longrifles. I found this website and a few others, and got outfitted in new stuff to fit my increased girth. Did a lot of shooting on my own range, went to some local club shoots, and went to a weekend rondy a few weeks ago.

I feel a little like Rip Van Winkle, and I don't like much of what I see. I'm wondering if there are others out there who can help me figure out what has happened over the past decade?

I find that the state parks in SC and Ga quit having shoots some time ago, but nobody seems to know why. The little weekend primitive shoots I used to go to seem to have disappeared. I don't see much point in driving a long way to spend part of a day shooting at paper targets on a formal range, so the club shoots don't hold much interest for me.

The shooting had mostly disapperaed from the NMLRA rondys when I quit going, and no one can tell me if it would be worth the drive and expense to go to another one.

It seems that muzzleloading now is either reenacting--in which there apparently is no shooting and usually no woocraft skills required, or hunting, in which for most people the only primitive aspect is the ML rifle, or target shooting.

Now don't get me wrong--I'm not knocking reenacting or hunting or target shooting. I'm just trying to find out whether there are folks out there who want to go to the woods under conditions as near as we can make them to 200 years ago, but who don't want the regimentation that comes with trying to portray a particular area or period asking everyone in the group to have share the same interest.

I can't imagine anthing more ironic than trying to portray a frontiersman--some of the most unregimented and individualistic men who ever walked the earth--and having some one tell me I have to find some academic documentation for some piece of gear I made. Don't blow your gaskets, Ghost--just consider the incongruity for a minute.


I read about developing a persona--again, I'm not knocking anyone else's hobby or interest, but in 20 years building and shooting and going to the woods with longrifles it never occured to me to think about being anyone but me, transported back in time.

Looking over my gear, almost all hand made, I'll bet I could pass a pretty critical inspection as a longhunter or upland militiaman or such, but I never thought of things that way. To me, it way part of an effort to escape the times we live in, and the whole thing would be pointless if done anywhere but in the woods or in primitive surroundings. I'd love to spend a weekend primitive in a reconstructed frontier fort, but only if we did a lot of shooting and didn't see anyone in modern gear or look across the field to see cars in the parking lot.

So, the question I have is did I get back into this hobby only to find that it's moved in directions I don't want to go, or are there others out there who don't really fit into most of what seems to be going on, but don't post anything on the net?

 

[16gauge]

I guess I kinda fit into the catagory your describing....my main focus on muzzleloading was to get more "huntin'" time in the woods during the muzzleloading season. I've hunted deer for several years with the Hawken my wife gave me as a graduation present, but I never really wanted to go the route of "mountain man".....I always felt that if I showed up at a rondevous with my adjustable sighted hawken and my gortex lined jacket, I would be thrown out so fast it would make my head spin! By the same token, while I enjoy watching reenactors, I don't have the time or patience to research the minute details that seem to be necessary. Still, I do make much of my own black powder/muzzleloading gear, and enjoy doing so....even if it isn't exactly PC. I enjoy using waht I make and muzzleloading season is my favorite of the deer season....I enjoy the solitude (or rather, did....until the inline crowd discovered the muzzleloading season! ) It was always quite and usually there was a skiff of snow on the ground.
I'll never quite understand the inline crowd...if you want a modern rifle, why hunt the primative season? I hear such things as "my rifle will shoot farther", "my rifle will kill deer at 250 yards using 4 pellets of pyrodex and a 300 grain jacketed bullet in a plastic sabot"; "Smokeless powder is now a 'black powder' substitute for modern inlines".....I cringe, I tell yah! :curse:
I enjoy hunting with my hawken so much that I bought a trade musket last fall (flint) in order to hunt small game/birds with traditional BP....but when I go duck hunting, I will have my neoprene waders on! ::

 

[roundball]

Some thoughts:

Various things I've done in my life...then drifted away from...then tried to go back to...were never, ever the same as they once were;

The degree to which you were apparently devoted to your interests long ago, IMO, is a degree that I think very, very few have time, money, interest, or energy for;

While my lifetime interests have always involved hunting and recreational shooting...the exploring and mastering the technical hunting/shooting aspects of each sport (trap/skeet/rifles/handguns/archery/muzzleloaders) have always been the attraction to me, not the associated persona issues.

For example, I'm thoroughly satisfied with my reading/learning/mastering/practicing/shooting/hunting only with flintlocks now...however, the practical convenience of buying and using modern, warm dry hunting clothes and boots instead of trying to make them....happen to fit my lifestyle, my time constraints, my particular degree of interest, etc.

Just different strokes I guess
:front:

 

[Maestro]

I'm just trying to find out whether there are folks out there who want to go to the woods under conditions as near as we can make them to 200 years ago...

I'm kind of new to this but isn't this what "Period Trekking" is all about. Even within that, there are folks that take it to varying levels.

I think that as with so many different hobbies, some folks just take them more seriously than others. I heard a quote regarding priorities once that said "Nowadays, people Worship their Work; Work at their Play; and Play at their Religion". Personally, :imo: I think we need to :relax: and lighten up a bit at our "playtime". I have a friend who CANNOT enjoy hunting if he doesn't have a kill. Among flyfishers, there are those that spend half their time taking the temperature of the water, looking at the nymphs under the rocks, and "matching the hatches" - it's literally a science. Then there are those who just tie on a bug and toss it in - they don't know their Baetis from a Trico. And they both love flyfishing!

So... to each his own. But there's NO reason why you can't enjoy this "hobby" (or any other for that matter) the way you like - don't feel pressured by any one else.

... To me, it way part of an effort to escape the times we live in...

Ultimately, I think this is a common purpose among ALL of us that enjoy this! :thumbsup:

 

[Cruzatte]

I guess here is as good a spot as any to unload. DisclaimerThese are my personal comments, and are not meant to cast aspersions upon any one else's enjoyment of different aspects of the black powder hobby.

What I enjoy most, quite honestly is a week end away from civilization, out on the prairie in any season of the year. I like the challenge of starting my cook fire with flint and steel, rummaging around in my haversack to see what I can come up with for supper, or breakfast. Something as simple as cooking coffee over the fire makes the coffee that much more flavorful. Add to this that I still like to play "dress-up" at the age of 52. And I like to play dress-up because I've found that I am becoming a passable late 18th early 19th century tailor.

Another little camp activity that I enjoy is on a crisp autumn afternoon, sitting around the fire, and running a few ball for my longrifle, using a small lead ladle, and a steel bag mold. Then go hike over to the range and see how well they shoot.

The whole personna thing just doesn't fit. I don't feel the need to explain why a guy my age is out on the frontier of Louisiana etc., etc. Although I do try to match my camp gear, personal kit, and accouterments to the gun I carry on a given week end, the whole fictionalized biography exercise seems to be more work than it's worth and quite unnecessary.

As far as living history events go, I do attend them, and participate, too. But I leave my guns at home. I'd rather shoot live fire target matches than just use my guns as a parade prop. Paper targets, knock-down targets, shooting at Xs on a shingle, it doesn't matter. Instead, I usually bring a musical instrument, and make music with friends. It could be a fiddle, or at a military event, I might bring a fife to play the duty calls. Soon, I hope to be good enough on the snare drum to play that part.

I feel better now. :m2c:

Cruzatte

 

[Maestro]

What I enjoy most, quite honestly is a week end away from civilization...

Ahhh......

Something as simple as cooking coffee over the fire makes the coffee that much more flavorful

Mmmmmmm......

Add to this that I still like to play "dress-up" at the age of 52.

...sounds like fun to me!

I'm glad some of you have spoken up - I've given some thought to a "persona" but I keep coming to the conclusion that I just would like to explore who I/me/myself would have been had I lived back then. And then (however much I try to use this to teach my homeschooled kids a little about history) my wife & kids have fun dressing up and pretending. I want to continue to keep it fun for them too!

 

[Claude Mathis]

I'm glad some of you have spoken up - I've given some thought to a "persona" but I keep coming to the conclusion that I just would like to explore who I/me/myself would have been had I lived back then.

That's what most of us do. I don't know anyone who's persona is a real person from history. My "character" is me, in 1757.

There may some misunderstanding about what people are doing.

 

[tg]

Dance to your own tune, I used to
get dressed up,walk thru the woods shooting stumps, rocks and targets of oppurtunity,gear was suitable for the time period by my research though not always "common" I try to duplicate the gear as close as possible to get the feel of the times. There sre others put there at the level you seek, you will find them.

 

[musketshooter]

I personally know of many former ML shooters who have gone to cowboy shooting. It is a lot more reactive and faster paced. The other factors in the decline of ML shooting are cost for younger people and the fact that they have a lot of other sporting activities available that we never had. Nearly all of these are team sports and very few youngsters want to participate in individual sporting events. It seem to be the "herd" instinct. Don't stand out in a crowd! I know this is a sad commentary on the state of our society, but times have changed. :imo:

 

loophole, it's a good question you ask. Probably there is no answer to it as nothing is static, everything is dynamic.

I'm not a loner by any stretch. I enjoy doing most if not all the things you listed and as I age, gracefully I hope, I find myself doing the things you mentioned alone. Most of the friends that used to do the same things have moved on to other interests. So have I but I've not abandoned my love for muzzleloaders, hunting and fly fishing, (Maestro, I only know of Baetis and Trico, not the difference, but I tie a mean woolly bugger and a good elk hair caddis! I wish I could remember who said "fly fishing ain't about catching fish") I suppose muzzleloading and "doing things the old way" mean different things to different folks. My wife and I spent a lot of time learning how to do things the way our grandparents did. We did it to learn and perhaps in a feeble way keep old skills alive. They did it to survive. We didn't do those things exactly as they did but we achieved the same results. Good cured, smoked ham, wonderful apple cider, lots of veggies and fruits in the cellar and shelves upon shelves of canned goods, to say nothing of a freezer full of squirrel, rabbit, deer and fish, plus the hogs and beef we butchered. It was and is really satisfying to accomplish those things. I guess maybe it's kinda the same way with muzzleloading and attempting to do things in the same way those hunters of long ago did them. I don't care if your shooting bag is machine stitched or hand stitched, (mine are hand stitched, by me), or if you bought your hunting shirt from Dixie, (I did). Mostly, for me, it's being out there learning and doing, and learning by doing......plus it's a heck of a lot of fun and perhaps a psychological escape.

I don't know if I could do the regimented re-enactments but they certainly serve a purpose and are fun to attend, if there's a shoot going on. I understand they don't shoot at the rondy in Pinedale, Wy. anymore. That would ruin it for me. Those vigorously inspected and enforced gatherings are a very important living history event and I admire those who attend and make them possible. They're also a great source of information. If a person chooses to immerse themselves to the point where they look down their noses at anyone less perfect than they, whatever that may be, they are of the wrong mind set and snobs, or worse. If they are willing to share their vast knowledge, experience and abilities they are of the correct mind set and right. Everyone has to start somewhere and those same folks didn't start at the top of the game.

I dunno......I suppose we all have to find our niche. That's fun too!

Vic

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I would say that ML has now become rather diverse, specialized and somewhat PC at times.

When I started back in the 70's, NAPR (National Association Primitive Riflemen) was the mountain men rage. Rondys then seemed almost a throw back in time & some got quite rowdy.

I remember the NAPR nationals at Kalispell MT (in 78 or 79) where two factions fought a pitched hand to hand battle (in which I and scores of others participated) over a rock and a guy chained to a tree. At that rondy we had co-ed sweat lodges (sans clothes) down by the creek and delightful young female nude creatures rode horses bareback through the camp.

I also remember one night, John Baird (Baird, John D: Hawken Rifles The Mountain Man's Choice) got his fleece ribs tickled with a Green River blade. If I recollect right, (have been wrong before) it was Terry Johnston (a medic at the time, and later one of the greatest early western authors ever) whom patched him up. http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:KPrva...uthor&hl=en

I haven't been to a rondy in many winters, but from what I hear, they are now tame affairs. Which maybe for me now at three score six, that should just about be my speed.

 

[oomcurt]

Hi Loophole,

Read your post...and can relate. I guess we are products of a different time. I totally agree with you on the individuality of the old trappers and plainsmen. I also can see not much sense going to a rondy, or any outing for that matter to just parade in PC clothing. My guess is that for you..and me..the small local rondys are much more fun and include a lot more shooting and buckskinning. Looking back over the years...even though I have only recently gotten into black[url] powder...things[/url] have changed a lot. 20-30-40 some years ago I also disappeared for a week during deer season. No phone, no electricity, no inside plumbing, etc. Many is the time I got dressed in the snow as it was warmer outside than inside the shack we stayed in.[url] And...things[/url] were wilder. Today, if one tried some of the stuff we did one would either get arrested or the present day "society" would have called some shrink. With the bunch I spent time with..you were expected to know your whereabouts and smart enough to use a compass..if someone didn't come back at night...there was not that much concern. By noon though of the following day folks would start looking. Same thing with handlinding..your gun..there was none of this overly safety thing...you did not do certain things..you were raised/trained not to. You knew how good a shot you were...where you were shooting....and acted accordingly. For example...if one of your party was ahead of you..but away to one side..and a deer was dead straight ahead of you..you took the shot. Maybe today that is a no no...but no one that I know of was ever shot "accidently". However...never ever did any of us take any kind of shot if there was anything that could go wrong..like shooting into a stone wall or cliff. I dunno....taking a week off to live in the bush...doesn't seem that time consuming to me. Done that most of my adult life. In fact...the first time I was married...the wife at that time could not get off from her job at that time...so..I took a week off and went duck hunting. Took the second week off for our vacation..when she could get away, and took my third week off for deer season. Maybe today folks don't get that long a vacation period..We did...if...you had enough years in your job.

 

[redwing]

Yes most of the Rendezvous are tame now, because most of
us are much older. Many have turned into big weekend
"yuppie" type camp outs.
I try to make the small ones. Most of them have 25 or
so shooters. They do not have all the rules about what
was only used in 1830. I think the correct crowed has
run off most fellows. And a new shooter would be
scared away by all these rules.
I have been in shooting sports for many moons. And every
one of them has gone down because of stupid rules. I
was in IPSC for years, it was big. Now you hardly ever
hear of it. I tried the Cowboy thing and are they headed
the way of the "Ole Buff".
I think more would show up if we went back to shooting
and having fun. But if the main thing is if your
bag was hand sewen or your T/C Hawken is wrong for our
party its all going to die. Just my thought...

Redwing :redthumb:

 

[Maynerd62411]

I betya that IF Goretex was invented 175 years ago, there would have been alot of it under the buckskins. It woulda been more popular than unionjack longjohns. :imo:

 

[Maestro]

I betya that IF Goretex was invented 175 years ago, there would have been alot of it under the buckskins. It woulda been more popular than unionjack longjohns. :imo:

I guess in another 175 years, the reenactors portraying 2005 will be wearing Gore-Tex (if they can find it!).

 

[Dave Poss]

We had some of this discussion at the Georgia woods walk you were good enough to attend. Things have changed for sure. I think there are still plenty of "us" out there...just in smaller groups. The self-imposed restrictions of "pre-1779, or 1750 period only, or Fur trade period only" events have segregated the "buckskinning" fraternity. This is our own doings. Years ago (70"s), at any rendezvous you may have attended, Your camp of 1750 may be right next to a full blown Mountain man camp on one side and a civil War reinactor on the other! It was a time when all you needed was a love of history (any period) and a muzzleloader to be welcome in anyones camp. Now, period rendezvous or gatherings are oft times time specific and if you don't fit that period...don't attend!
Another thought is those of us who survived the "early" days have perfected our equipment to a period we are the most comfortable in. And, thusly, we tend to look for others with the same interest.
Woods worth walking in are fast becoming shopping centers and subdivions in my area. There are still plenty of woods in some places, but it's private property or State where firearms are not allowed.The trips (treks) I used to take for a week or two would now land me in someones living room probably.
But, all in all, we can't go back to those days...so, our only choice is to adapt. If we can't find someone with our similar interest...we should go by ourself. If you can't walk in the woods for 6 days without running into a fence....walk for 3 days twice. Make your enjoyment where you can find it.

Last note...Even when I was young, I didn't care to attend a drunken brawl like that mentioned in the post above. That was one turn off of the mountain man type rendezvous for me. I didn't feel I had to get knee-wobbling drunk and yell till all hours of the night around women and kids and start a fight just to have fun as some did. That cup of coffee over the campfire and some conversation with friends was enough for me. To each their own!

 

[Tahquamenon]

For me, muzzleloading is better than ever. I have much more financial means and opportunity.

I am mostly into the weapons and some accoutrements. Love shooting and hunting with muzzleloaders. But I am gaining more interest into persuit of the historical elements.

I do my own "primitive" each year for a couple times, a few days each on my property. I typically go in October and again in February or March. Some years only once, some not at all. Not really primitive but more rustic camping/hiking/hunting.

I am in modern weatherproof clothes, boots, bedroll and rain fly, carry very simple cooking equipment (small pan for frying, pot and coffee pot, cups, a couple of tin plates and some basic utensils), along with some cedar kindling to make fires in a waterproofed haversack). Very small amount of supplies (coffee, hard bread, some deer jerky or smoked fish and some spices (salt and pepper) for game meat. I hunt small game and fish for my meals. I carry a sidelock muzzleloader and make a small fishing fly rod from tamarack switch. For fishing, I carry a few small hand tied fly's, hooks, sinkers, cork bobbers and black nylon line in a tiny box. I also set up a small hand made tip up fishing snare during the nights and I can usually catch at least one fish of some sorts, but sometimes not. I normally hunt hard until I have something to eat (squirrel, rabbit, partridge, raccoon, etc), then dry cook/smoke the meat over a fire. If I catch a fish, I'll roast or fry the fish. Each day I often make a new camp area. I make a practice to leave each camp area as I found the woods before my arrival. With little if any trace that I was there. Certainly nothing that will show for any long period of time.

A few times, I've not gotten any small game or fish and only the little that I brought with me.

That is my idea of "trekking". I've been doing this since the 70's. Most of the time by myself, occasionally with a friend.

 

[Holley]

The are tame now...too bad in many a way.
I remember the 78 NAPR and the NMLRA when they were separate events. But did we have fun. The 78 one was in Livingston. What hard ground. But I guess that is why it is called the Rockies....Duh!

Then the One in 1980 that Heston and the crew showed up at for the movie premeir of Mountain Man. Now that was the best darn party ever and where people came together to build the bridge to get into camp when the lady denied access at the last moment. And talk of the co-ed sweat...I could write a book on that event....Oh....the cat soldiers..passed on now...Crazy bear??? Yep...all PC...today. Sorry state.

Linda Holley....tipis

 

[Tahquamenon]

I enjoy the solitude (or rather, did....until the inline crowd discovered the muzzleloading season! ) It was always quite and usually there was a skiff of snow on the ground.
I'll never quite understand the inline crowd...if you want a modern rifle, why hunt the primative season? I hear such things as "my rifle will shoot farther", "my rifle will kill deer at 250 yards using 4 pellets of pyrodex and a 300 grain jacketed bullet in a plastic sabot"; "Smokeless powder is now a 'black powder' substitute for modern inlines".....I cringe, I tell yah!

Hi 16Gauge,

Primitive season happens to be your interpretation...

Michigan muzzleloading season is not defined by law as a "primitive" season. Merely a season where the ML you carry must be loaded from the muzzle, use conventional or substitue black powder. Even the caliber of use was recently removed for deer season, so now you can use any ML caliber. Granted, when the MI ML season was put on the books, the only ML's available were sidelocks of various variety.

Quote from the MI 2005/06 regulations:
"Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can use only a muzzleloading rifle or muzzleloading shotgun or black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute."

If you want a primitive season or to make the current ML season primitive, then the law and regulation will need to be changed or amended. Otherwise, then get used to seeing more folks hunting during ML season and/or with an implement that you don't care for.

I'd wager, if just as many greater numbers of folks were not carrying an inline but a sidelock, you and other folks might still be peeved that there were so many more folks hunting where there used to be no one or only a couple.

I hunt my and other private lands and don't hunt Michigan public lands during deer season anymore. But if I did, most days you would see me carrying a sidelock of some sort (then we could be friends).

Then some other day I might be toting an inline (then we would be enemies).

It's a shame to me that under the current definition of the law, we can't simply be muzzleloading comrades.

eace:

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I betya that IF Goretex was invented 175 years ago, there would have been alot of it under the buckskins. It woulda been more popular than unionjack longjohns. :imo:

And, by that standard, they would not have carried rock locks but M-16's, if they had been invented, which they weren't.