Whats in a name???

[The New Guy]

I have been reading this forum for months and have learned a great deal from all of you guys but one answer still seems to elude me. What makes a Hawken a Hawken, a plains a plains, etc., etc.? I hear a lot of terms being used to identify a particular style of gun but I can't seem to wrap my head around what makes it such. If someone could point me in the right direction to maybe a website or book where I could learn such info it would be a great help. As many of you know, I recently purchased a Daly .50 cal to mess up while learning how not to refinish/restore a gun and the same person also sold me a T/C "Hawken" barrel in the same caliber. What makes it a Hawken? it doesn't have any particular markings and it is a lot longer than the Daly barrel and the other .50 Cal CVA Mountain Stalker that I have.

 

[BrownBear]

Lotta folks go through the spin cycle on life's washing machine over the TC Hawken name. Original Hawken rifles were in fact made by the various member of the Hawken family in the 1800's. There are some good books on them and lots of threads here.

TC "borrowed" the name for their rifle, which in fact has few points in common with the original. It's more of a "California" style from a later period in the 1800's from what I have heard.

"Plains" rifles is a very general style, some say fairly well represented by the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. Lotta original makers in that era turned out what we call plains rifles today, and there's a pretty broad range of interpretations about what qualifies.

For me the whole issue of name purity is kinda like cutting red tape.... lengthwise.

 

[Rifleman1776]

BB answered it well. TC borrowed the famous Hawken name as a marketing tool. When I refer to the TC rifle I type it as 'hawken' to indicate it is not a real Hawken or I am not misteaking it to be.
BTW, the TC thing is a good shooter even if the name is fuddled up.

 

[The New Guy]

So what is it about this particular barrel, or any other for that matter, that would make it a 'hawken'? There is no special marking or name other than Thompson Center. Is it just the length or the way the breech is manufactured.

 

[Lonegun1894]

The barrel isnt a Hawken, it is just what TC called that model of their own manufacture because the name is well known, so attaching a well known name to their product was an attempt to increase sales (just a marketing scheme)--and I believe it worked. They weren't concerned that their rifle does not fit the characteristics of the original Hawken rifles. The Lyman GPR comes much closer, but still is not a true copy as it has many differences also. Even the originals were not perfect copies of each other, but more a style of rifle with many options available just like today, (just to pick the first one that comes to mind) Remington sells the model 700 in various configurations, but they all have the same action and general design in common. I would say that it should be helpful to look at a lot of the various pictures posted here by members of the different types and styles of guns. The defferences between styles are often somewhat insignificant until you get more familiar and start noticing the fine details, and this is often much easier to notice if you can see the guns side by side. For example, a TC hawken and a Lyman GPR do the same thing (shoot), but the GPR has more drop in the stock, slightly more curve in the buttplate, a longer barrel, etc. The "early" Lancaster has a wider buttplate than the "late" Lancaster, among other differences. Some styles are named differently based on the style, type, and amount of carving, inlays, etc. I can't tell you anything about those because I'm don't know enough about many types yet, and I think this is a lifelong learning process, so dont expect to be an expert by the next month by any means. Just take your time, learn, ask questions, and someone here will have the answers. Usually, I'll be right along with you asking more questions than I have answers, but we're all learning and getting better as time goes on.

 

[Sinner]

As already stated, with TC it's only a model designation to differentiate from others they sell. I don't believe that the term "hawkin" applies to a particular barrel in general as much as it does to the "style" of muzzleloader. I'm not one of those that cares whether my rifle is so much a true representation of a particular model, as long as it appeals to me and functions well.

 

[BrownBear]

The barrel is just a handy place to put the model name of the rifle. Kinda like Winchester stamps Model 70 on a barrel.

 

[FRJ]

The "Hawken" rifle was made by the Hawken brothers in the mid to late 19th century. The "Hawkin" is spelled differently is a 20th century invention of marketing firms to ride on the popularity of the original Hawken rifles. There's a world of difference between the 2. FRJ

 

[LaBonte]

The "Hawken" rifle was made by the Hawken brothers in the mid to late 19th century. The "Hawkin" is spelled differently is a 20th century invention of marketing firms to ride on the popularity of the original Hawken rifles. There's a world of difference between the 2. FRJ

With all due respect the Hawkins appellation is not a 20th Century invention - while it is an incorrect spelling of the name, it shows up often in the period literature - remember that was a time where spelling was often loose and in many documents the same word may be spelled differently several times.

Here's some examples of the name in period spelled Hawkin - 1836 trade list:
8 Hawkins " from $20 to $26
2 Rifles Hawkins @$24
but then in 1837 it is Hawken

10 Hawkens Rifles @$24

In June 1839, one of the company's (American Fur) employees bought from "Jacob and Sam. Hawkins" a "smooth bord rifle $22".

In 1829 Etienne Provost, a French Canadian, became a partner in the American Fur Company. An entry for "2 rifles, Hawkins & Co., $50 " was made against his account. This is one of the few known early references to the purchase of a Hawken rifle by a mountain man. In the same year, Kenneth McKenzie from Fort Floyd (later renamed Fort Union) asked Pierre Chouteau Jr. for two rifles "similar in all respects to the one made by Hawkins for Provost."

1832 Trade list:
pd Hawkins for Pistols $30.00

Louis Simonds, an acquaintance of Lewis Garrad, spoke of a Cincinnatian at the Taos Insurrection of 1847 as: "Out in the pinyon, that morning, with big Saint Loui' gun - a Jake Hawkins gun, she was eh? He had bullets an inch long, with a sharp pit be doggoned ef they wasn't some, eh? - We had to leave him, but I guess he'll come in safe.

There are more........bottom line while the correct spelling is HAWKEN the Hawkin name was often used by writers in the 1822-150 period and later

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thomas Jefferson said:

"It's a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word"

atriot: :surrender:

 

[LaBonte]

Thomas Jefferson said:

"It's a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word"

atriot: :surrender:

good quote but wrong president - that was Andy Jackson not Jefferson

another I like
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way..... Sam Clemens

 

[Lonegun1894]

Thomas Jefferson said:

"It's a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word"

atriot: :surrender:

I tried telling my high school english teacher that one time, and even backed it up with finding it in a book. I mean, if one of our President's was a supporter of this method, surely she could appreciate it.... She didn't.