what's in your haversack?

[coloradoclyde]

I blew the picture up the word is Bretelle which is french for sling.

 

[Wes/Tex]

These French packs are larger and heavier than the Anglo haversack. Hopefully these can help you see their actual size and capacity.
http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v1_x2_s01_ss13_01.jpg
http://www.lessignets.com/signetsdiane/calendrier/images/juillet/6/soldats_francais11111111.jpg

Back view of soldier from Regiment Berry wearing the same bag across back as used in the French army of that period.
http://www.planetfigure.com/attachments/1-jpg.173826/

 

[coloradoclyde]

check this out. http://mailmaker.tripod.com/climbing/knapsack1b.jpg

 

[Wes/Tex]

That's a pretty good copy of the double strap style French style back bag. :thumbsup: If I understand all the blurb on them, they were made in both leather and, more commonly, heavy drill or canvas. :v

 

[Wes/Tex]

The illustration appearing in Osprey's 'Men-At-Arms' #302 "Louis XV's Army (2) French Infantry", is much more detailed and certainly clearer. Rene Chartrand, the author, also points out that the 'ordinary' version is made of linen or sailcloth with a leather belt and brass buckle. The small cow hide (with hair) bag with the four buttons is the companion piece for it. The double strap version below is it's previous version with it's matching draw-string bag (Petit Sac de l'Haversac) at lower left. In the illustration pages Eugene Leliepvre ddi for this volume, both type haversacks are show in service at roughly the same period with the strapped version being phased out by the late 1750's.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Great info, but I was just kind of wondering if anyone on this forum actually used one.

Well after reading all that.... :haha:

I have a bag, with a shoulder strap, that I sometimes carry oats in :wink:

That I carry both small & big game hunting.



My wife made it up for me, with the added strap pocket. When not bow hunting small game I use the strap pocket to hold a "hawk" handle. (The head is in a bandana in the bag). Like most things it takes some adjusting, the more I have in it the more I move it to my back.

I have a way to start a fire, sharpening stone, a bit of food, maybe a canteen (often I do without), the bandana & hawk head, a bit of twine & that's about it.

Sometimes gloves, or my 2nd shirt will come off mid day & make it into the bag, or I'll use it as a game bag & drop a rabbit in it....


Post Script; The arrows are rubber tip blunts :wink:

 

[coloradoclyde]

That’s pretty cool Sean, especially the built in quiver. :thumbsup:

However, I was referring to a snapsack :idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

Aimed at no one, but I have to add an insight into this whole discussion.

Our forebears who used these things with heavy loads had grande huevos. Put a load in them and cover 8 or 10 miles of tough terrain, and they are downright miserable to carry. Give me a modern, two-strap pack any day.

Guys that used them back then were just built tougher than I am, and no doubt about it. I get anywhere near 10# in one, and it hacks miles off the distance I'll travel and hunt in a day.

 

[Alden]

Brown Bear, I bet you could do it much more easily when you were younger. Remember that people died much earlier than we. They were younger and stronger on average until...

...dead.

 

[colmoultrie]

No no you're absolutely right... they carried stuff, but my contention, personal contention I admit, is that the white, or off white, canvas bag wasn't called a "haversack" unless it was marked, and military property, which the civilian probably rarely had outside of military service. I think it a fallacy of modern living history to use the term "haversack" for any shoulder bag not used for the firearm that is used to carry "stuff". The same way that lots of folks react to the term "possibles bag". (OK maybe they react with less passion)

LD

I'd recommend the article by Eleanor Labine, "The Scarlet H: Female Reenactors' Use of 18th Century Haversacks," in Muzzleloader Magazine, March/April 2011.

Labine shows two Hogarth images of women carrying "GR" marked haversacks in London, so the idea that civilians never used them, that they were all returned after service, or that all people were terrified that they might get caught carrying them was not universally true.

 

[spudnut]

I carry a spare fire kit, housewife with small scissors needles etc. a square wooden plate, a ticking bag with a fork and spoon,small tin with seasoning bottles,a folding knife, and my eyeglass case and spotting scope.
I carry this bag to shoots to be prepared for an afternoon of fun at the range and just keep it in my truck

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't remember suggesting that it was "universally true".

Let me ask you this, are the illustrations of men or women? Is the referenced magazine article about men or women? Further, widows and wives were sometimes kept on army rolls and sometimes entitled to draw rations, so they would need a ration bag just as would the men.

So, my contention still stands, unless you are suggesting that the women were subject to arrest for desertion from the army? I would doubt that soldiers would bother to document the confiscation of a haversack from a woman because it was marked as King's property.

Further, London went from 750,000 to more than 1,000,000 inhabitants from 1760 to 1801... so in a population so dense, the odds of avoiding law enforcement are much more in favor of the offender than in the lower populated areas of the British colonies, when soldiers are moving through them during wartime.

Archives of Maryland Online:

"That the council of safety be authorised to cause muskets found by the militia, or borrowed or purchased, without bayonets, iron ramrods, priming wires, brushes, belts, or scabbards, to be fitted therewith; and to furnish each private with a cartridge box containing 23 rounds, six flints, one blanket, one knapsack, with a haversack, and a canteen or wooden bottle to hold one quart,...
1776

"...a rough draft of the new Invented Napsack and haversack in one that is adopted by the Americans Regulars of Pennsylvania New Jersey & Virginia @ 8/6 each.

I could furnish any quantity that may be wanted for Maryland by the first of April."
1776

"Philada Feby 10th 1776.
Dear Sir. Inclosed you receive a proposal to furnish our Troops with the new invented Knapsack and Haversack & of Cartouch Boxes &c. The Blockade of Quebec is continued Arnold has 700 men with him,...
Febuary 10th, 1776


"To Captains Smyth and Perkins.... Messrs Smyth and Ringold who are requested to have tents made, will furnish you with them. Knapsacks, Haversacks, and Priming Wires, shall be sent you from Baltimore. " August 16 1776


"To Mr. John Gordon, Baltimore Town
Sir.
As all the Troops belonging to the Province are directed to march immediately to the Northward, we beg you will work Day and Night in furnishing the Knapsack and Havresack; you have engaged to make, as they cannot march without them."
16 August 1776

"To Mr. Gerard Hopkins Son of Richard....Knapsacks and Havresacks in one are offered to be made in Philadelphia, and all materials found for eight shillings and six
pence a piece; you speak only of Havresacks, it is not known if you mean Havresacks alone or Knapsacks and Havresacks together [new invented haversacks], as soon as the price can be fixed the cash will be sent you. The Councill will pay what the Committee of Baltimore
shall fix that value at....They will however take the eight hundred and fifty Havresacks made in consequence of Colonel Ewings request to you
which you are to deliver only to the order of the Council of Safety, they again desire to know whether you mean Havresacks alone or Knapsacks with them...
27 July 1776

The contention of others is the "haversack" in the latter half of the 18th century in the American colonies means either a pack or a military ration bag... and the French used the term for a single strapped pack or a double strapped pack. Well, You don't use two different terms for an item that may be used for both carrying your stuff and carrying rations if the lone term may be changed. Further, we can see that the uses for both were sufficiently different that at one time they asked if the manufacturer was making a single item for to be used for both purposes, OR were the items being separately made. We also note that it was a "new invented" idea to put the carrying of the rations AND the carrying of the stuff into a single piece of equipment.

Therefore, IF in English the term "havresack" or "haversack" had meant either a pack or a military ration bag or a bag of horse feed, that idea had been out of use for so long that it was considered a "new" idea to make both items into one, single item.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

I plan to enter this thread but haven't taken stock of my haversack for a while. My listing will be different than most others. But appropriate. Maybe later.

 

I plan to enter this thread but haven't taken stock of my haversack for a while. My listing will be different than most others. But appropriate. Maybe later.

So, this post is telling us you are going to post?

Call someone and tell them you're going to call them later. I like it. :wink:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I plan to enter this thread but haven't taken stock of my haversack for a while. My listing will be different than most others. But appropriate. Maybe later.

So, this post is telling us you are going to post?

Call someone and tell them you're going to call them later. I like it. :wink:

I think it's called "thinking out loud"
I do it all the time, its a great way to drive people "nuts" :grin:

 

[Alden]

Clyde, I think you've made an insightful observation and sometime, soon, I'm going to come back here to read it...

 

[coloradoclyde]

:rotf: :hmm:

 

[Rifleman1776]

OK, as promised, my contribution. What I'm showing is not complete and, I'm sure, quite different than what most others will have in theirs. The primary use for my havesack has been when I give talks and presentations about the Rev. Rifleman. I use the contents of my h'sack to try to tell the story of who and what the Rifleman was in the AWI. I'll take the items out one at a time and explain their use by the Rifleman. In the pic, you can see a deck of cards. Now, for enlisted men gambling was stricktly prohibited by George Washington. Same for him and officers but they did it often. Also shown are a wood drinking noggin, map, tobbaco tin with magnifying glass, pipe, small flask for medicine like laudanum, flint and steel and char clothe, fork, paper money and compass. And, never forgotten, the cell phone. :shocked2:
Now, I'm sure the average Rifleman did not have all these items. But all would have found their way into the h'sack of some of the volunteer Rifleman at one time or another. Some items I'm not showing are: folding gentlemans knife, sewing kit, candles, coin, etc. And, of course, food like parched corn and jerky.
The cell phone surprise you? I used it when speaking for two purposes. One, to wake up the give the audience a laugh and, at times, to just see if they are still awake and paying attention. I found, mostly at DAR meetings, the cell phone never raised an eyebrow. When your audience average age is past 90 I could have pulled an elephant out of there without it causing a stir.
I did not, and do not, put shooting items in the h'sack. Those go in my shooting bag. Also notably absent are reading materials, like a Bible, and writing materials. Despite what some have written, I am positive that very few of the Riflemen were literate. No use for such things.

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[coloradoclyde]

Question!
I have that exact same fork in the picture but thought that 3 tines was incorrect for the period.
So will the P/C police shackle me for it?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Depends on your personna. Three and even four tined forks were common in France even in the less well-to-do homes by the 17th century.

So if you have a "background" where you are or might have had contact with a coureur de bois in Ohio Territory you'd be more likely to have on than a longhunter from Virginia.