What's The Learning Curve On Flinters?

[ebiggs1]

I would suggest you get a “kit” that is pretty much done for you on the first try. Some kits are no more than a box of parts. There are some pretty critical measurements that need to be spot on. If you don't know these, you can make a $700 kit into a $70 gun. Pretty quickly, too.
A Lyman GPR kit would be my advise as a first time builder AND shooter.
I struggled at first but it just came to me and now I don't even think about it, I just shoot them and they work. :thumbsup:
But are they as reliable as a cap lock. No, they are not. If they were we would still be using them! Not just as a hobby but using them. They are a lot of fun and that is the main thing.

 

[Naphtali]

While researching a monograph, I located the following data.

1. Percussion cap lock mechanisms, [essentially] regardless of inherent quality, malfunction once per 166 cycles.

2. Military flintlock mechanisms - think Brown Bess or Charleville - malfunction once per six cycles.

3. Best-quality flintlock mechanisms, circa 1790s-1830s - think Joseph Manton, Mortimer, etc. - malfunction once per 96 cycles.
***
When I digested these data, I concluded that cap locks are, for practical purposes, as reliable as a cartridge gun. With experience and careful attention to maintenance and loading, best-quality flintlocks are about as reliable. But military flintlocks are a different bag of cats.

Hope this helps.

 

[ohio ramrod]

The learnin g curve for flintlocks is more of a catanary (goes up logrithmaticly ) than a circular segment. I have been shooting black powder cap and flints since the late fifties and am still learning! :idunno:

 

[tecum-tha]

And who made up those statistics?
While I agree, that the percussion cap is usually pretty reliable, other parts of the system are not very reliable (a lot of bad patent breeches on cheaper guns like to catch fouling etc.) A military flintlock only going off 5 times out of 6? I don't think so, especially if you follow the proper military loading procedures. The locks are virtually the same as modern production locks, which were built by specialized gilded builders. Their advantage was, that they are larger and thus easier to operate than smaller flintlocks.
A caplock is only reliable if you have access to caps and this was historically always a problem. A sharp stone can be knapped with limited talent and used to fire a flintlock. Another part is cost: Nowadays a cap is about 5-10 cents a pop, depending on what you buy. I get at least 100 shots from a flint, and a flint is 1-2 dollars. So about 2 cents a pop max. If powder is about $14 a pound with a 75 grain load, this makes about 90 shots/lbs. So, about 15.5 cents a shot.
1 pound of lead is about 1.50 or less,and you cast about 40 balls/lbs. So a ball costs about 4 cents. Patch is about 0.75 cent. Null B priming powder, about 7 grains or less and $23/lbs. So I have about 1000 primes @ 0.23 cents. Total cost of flintlock shot:
About 20 cents a shot.
or about: 23-28 cents a shot, depending on price and brand of cap. Lets take the median at 25 cents. Makes it about 20% more expensive. This doesn't matter if you shoot only a little for hunting, but with 1000s of shots/year, this sums up. About $50/ 1000 shots. Now, if you buy powder cheaper than that in bulk, the ratio of the percussion cap price increases. Calcs are assuming a .50 cal.

 

[aeatwood]

And the ATF has not put (so far) a hazmat fee on sharp rocks. 8)

 

[Stumpkiller]

While researching a monograph, I located the following data.

1. Percussion cap lock mechanisms, [essentially] regardless of inherent quality, malfunction once per 166 cycles.

2. Military flintlock mechanisms - think Brown Bess or Charleville - malfunction once per six cycles.

3. Best-quality flintlock mechanisms, circa 1790s-1830s - think Joseph Manton, Mortimer, etc. - malfunction once per 96 cycles.
***
When I digested these data, I concluded that cap locks are, for practical purposes, as reliable as a cartridge gun. With experience and careful attention to maintenance and loading, best-quality flintlocks are about as reliable. But military flintlocks are a different bag of cats.

Hope this helps.

Is that military flintlocks in military service? Where those six shots would have been expected to be fired in just a minute or slightly longer!

I had a Bess made by Kit Ravenshear and it was nearly 100% on ignition.

For 10 years I used cap rifles as my primary deer and small game weapons, and have used flintlocks slightly longer as my primary hunting weapons. I find them equal in service. Nipples plug up, caps occasionally are placed with no charge or a dud charge, caps slip off unnoticed and sometimes just the unexplained pop with no bang.

With either system luck favors the careful and prepared. Give attention to the details and use a cow's knee.

 

[Stony]

To be honest, your learning curve depends a lot on you. If you are open minded and listen, don't just take one person's word and try new ideas/suggestions. It will go a lot easier than if you are as thick as a brick and your way is the only way. The first clue I have something needs looking at is when I fail to even get a flash in the pan. Probably need to address the edge on my flint 99% of the time.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

There is some logical advice about this after all. Well said.. As for realiability take care of the gun it will fire percussion, military or flint.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

The only reason I am even reply to this serious of post is to remind people that a truly made military gun is made by the cheapest bidder. I have been in the Army for almost 20 years now and can testify first hand that military grade rifles are pretty much problem free, with the following exceptions and if ya study military history you will see I am correct, most military guns are massed produce, with parts made by numerous vendors and peiced together from the start or the Rev. War through WWII. True authentic military grade rifles are great when the are spotless clean, get any dirt, fouling, shoot them and they have failed all through the course of history, thus such an importance on continues cleaning. Since the original arguement was based on flintlocks that is the area I will focus on sepcifically here. The average musket was able to fire 5-6 shots within one minute during "combat" thus meaning continous shooting without time to clean. Also keep in mind that it was Combat and the user was nervous and may have induced errors that led to a misfire as well, not enough primer to much etc. The soldier didn't have time to clean the torch hole between shots, and pickin the flint. Thus misfires occured and 1 out of every 6 shots misfiring is pretty acurate information according to military reports. Now since the guns were massed produced, abused in the battle, things break wearout, springweaken so on. Also not all muskets were made to the same specs as well some had stiff spring some were weak, but all were supposed to be inspected and stamped with proof marks they were built correctly. Now if you were to take the same gun, or a reproduction gun in a range setting not combat, and had time to clean torch holes, pick the flint, swab the barrel then yes the fire rate goes way up but its a military gun designed for combat and in combat 1 in 6 shots resulted in a misfire. It simple history not the guns fault but combat. Ok sorry just had to clearify this and add my thoughts. :surrender: P.S. side note the militia soldiers that carried KY longrifle had the same mis-fire issues but there rate was 1-8 shots lead to a misfire in "combat" Key word "COMBAT" thus military gun "COMBAT" not shooting range. Some were attributed to dirty weapons others, user error from trying to load so fast in "COMBAT"

 

[Matt85]

And the ATF has not put (so far) a hazmat fee on sharp rocks. 8)

just you wait, a postal employee will be rifling threw a package some day looking for something to steal and cut himself on a flint... then there will be a "sharp object" fee added to all flint shipments.

-matt

 

[ebiggs1]

I think your explanation is logical. People today take a modern made flintlock, made from the best of materials by conscientious people, walk out to the range, where the gun has received the best of care and claim, “My flintlock is as reliable as a cap or cartridge gun!”
With that scenario I suppose it is and should be. Thanx for making this fact that may have been overlooked by many.
At this point we are actually just comparing “modern” guns.

 

[Rifleman1776]

What's The Learning Curve On Flinters?

75 years.

 

[sleeperNY]

The learning curve will be just what you make it. There isn't much difference from a cap rifle with the exception of the ignition system. You have been given some great advice here about shooting the flintlock and all thats left is to get out there and start shooting it. Learn what works for you and what doesn't and above all just have fun shooting. In the coming months you will wonder why you though it would be hard.

Jim

 

[David W.]

A flinter is a bit more finicky than a cap lock, but I love them all the same. There is a learning curve everyone goes through. Get yourself a cows knee for rainy weather.

 

[Stony]

You mean like when they checked some of the guns left on the battlefield at Gettysburg and found a lot that had several loads still in the barrel? I do remember they found one that had 22 loads in the barrel.

 

[tecum-tha]

And where are the sources? Please be so kind and give me a few. This combat here and combat there is not an explanation for these statistics. Because most of the time a soldier didn't even fire this many rounds in combat in linear tactics before a bayonet charge was called for.
Your weapon may be made by the lowest bidder, but it has to function to specs. In reality, the bids are not really this low overall. The stuff is still pretty expensive in government contracts. Are there better ones? Sure. This is like comparing a Doglock musket to a Kalthoff Repeater.
The historic arms are mostly of very good quality for the means the people had to produce them. My hunting rifle is 275 years old and it shoots much better than 5 out of 6. And this is not a highly adorned rifle, but is was used and had at least 2 touchhole liners installed and shot out after having its initial vent. Not all modern material is better suited for muzzleloaders. A good example is cast lock parts against forged, filed and surface hardened lock parts. Cast parts are much more likely to break due to brittle failure compared to soft on the inside and hard on the surface forged parts. The gunsmiths prided themselves back then, that a plain rifle was shooting as good as a highly adorned one. See Kuchenreuther family archives and books.

 

[Rifleman1776]

TT, wat LJZ said has been oft repeated in many accounts of CW battles. I don't accept that he needs to document his sources. I suggest you do some reading on your own about this subject.
BTW, you made some statements without documentation. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but please put down that first rock.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

And roger thats just one of the many comparisons often times during a retreat or bayonet charge the soldiers primary weapon would be dropped and they would grab the closest weapon they could grab often times the weapon would be attepted to fire and if it wouldn't it would be dropped and the cycle continues eventually the gun sometimes was loaded numerous times on top of the other charges and round. I have heard the rumors of the mystical 22 round gun but have seen no documented evidence to support it but it is likely possible.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

Your missing key elements in your counter response.
1. Your gun is not loaded in a dirty, nasty, field/combat situation.
2. Yes the gun typically would not be fired BY THE SAME SOLDIER 6 times, but the rifles/ muskets of the dead were often passed back to the rear lines and reloaded from the rear the passed back forward position thus allowing the soldiers to fires at a faster rate, thus the gun was fired more then 6 times.
3. Powder must be kept dry imagine loading a gun with sweety hands, or covered in blood the powder would surely get moisture of it its not like they had time to be careful like on a range.
4. Your still comparing a gun of the same time period in a range setting, versus a combat setting. Video tape yourself loading your gun as fast as you can as many times as you can without cleaning it, pickin the flint, or cleaning the torch hole. At a 6 rounds per minute or greater pace, post the video and let us see how many times the same gun fires in a row with out a misfire regardless of gun or user error. This will solve the debate free and clear. Oh and before ya say to easy march about 5 miles, with a back pack on weighing roughly 30 pounds, and let me shoot at ya so you get a true feeling of loading under stress so the test is true and accurate, if the gun fires more the 6 times in a row then you win this debate.
5. Yes military guns are built to a high specification, but then you get the JOE Factor which is inexperienced guys mess with and maintain the weapons beyond the abilities and often mess things up, or not say for instance reassemble the lock the correct way and its weakened. Your also not taking this under advisment.
6. Do any research of your own from the French and Indian war thru Civil War and you will see the information I have provide is accurate and widely reported from numerous sources on both sides of the battles.
7. Have a nice day..

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

The biggest part of the learning curve is not spending money on junk rifles with crappy locks. Spend the money on a quality rifle and take the advice from others with a grain of salt, because everyone in here has experience and some are great and some are stubborn. First step I would say in the curve is to shoot a flintlock first and see if ya like it. My buddy is a die hard muzzleloader but always shot percussion rifles, he spent 1300 and had a flinter built shot it 3 times said he didn't like the flash off the pan and never shot it again, and since it was installed with a 5/16 x 32 white lighting torch he couldn't switch it to percussion and sold it for 800 a couple months later. My dad is the same way he built a percussion gun, that he converted to a flintlock realized he couldn't stop jerking when he seen the flash of the pan and converted the gun back to a percussion and has never been changed back. If ya havent make sure ya shoot one before buying one. Its not for everyone not trying to scare you away just help out.