Wheellock lock comparison - Spanish Mendi vs. Indian X model

[Flint62Smoothie]

Agreed, thank you Cossack!!!!

 

[tarawa1943]

Cossack
Your story about loaning an original lock is exactly the story that my Indian friend told me. He said he borrowed a lock from a friend and he produced the first affordable wheellock gun in this country. His family owns the largest replica arms and armor company in India I believe. He retired from the gun supply business a while back.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rickytl

As far as I know they used a combination of the big English lock horse pistol that the Indians make and some pictures of the Spanish made stock I sent to them.

OK. Thanks. That makes sense. Thanks again for your input.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Too bad we can't (?) purchase just the locks.

Rick

 

[deGheyn]

I got mine from Loyalist Arms when they first offered them several years ago. Your stock looks better than mine though.

 

[Old Guard Manufacture]

Mendi - Spain - Sold various muzzleloaders in the 70s.

X - India - [Note, I was told this is an 'Indian' lock ... but I'm not so sure ... ] But arms makers in India did sell wheellock pistols through various US vendors going back about a decade ago or so. I also do know, from talking on the phone with the late Leonard Day Sr. (before he passed) that he had been experimenting with buying Indian-built W-L pistols and scavanging the locks to make carbines. But I never asked him where they got their locks.

If not mistaken, some of those used coil spring to power the locks, but I'll add the comment that I've yet to see a functioning 'wheellock' using coil springs (they have a long power curve, but are weak in the torque department). Now there are Japanese Tanegashima locks using coil springs of brass, but that is only powering a snap serpentine lock to drop it into the pan, and not rotating a heavy steel wheel, never mind against a pyrite bearing on it.

In both pictures below the Mendi lock is on top. For my comparison, plus when testing the springs for pressure and 'feel' (yes, albeit very subjective) they were compared to hand made wheellocks made by Brian Anderson of VT and Bolek Maciaszczyk who hails from Poland. I do not have a W-L lock from Rafal Ziółko (who also hails from Poland) to compare to.

Just thoughts that jump to mind, no real order, using 'S' for the Spanish Mendi lock and 'I' for the other:

• They appear identical, no idea which came first, but my guesstimates are that the Mendi came 1st and then Indian craftsmen either (a) copied the lock, or (2) bought out the supply on hand of the W-L locks whenever Mendi closed it's doors.
• Typically any lock originating from India is highly polished - but this 'I' lock is not, whether by a previous Owner (prior to our own RickyStl taking possesion) or if shpped that way (doubtful).
• Fit & Finish - I'd rate them as a tie. Please ignore the rust on the Mendi, this one is at the back of my bench with quite a few projects ahead of it.
• Parts - Again identical, and they'll even interchange, which leads me to the conclusion that Mendi made them both
• Dog - The 'I' lock actually functions better, as the toe on 'S' lock at the strirrup for the most forward position (puts the dog jaws parallel to the bore axis) was not hand fit, and the dog won't rotate to the right (as shown below) any further to the safe position.
• Dog Spring - Both rate as a tie, both well formed/shaped/polished prior to heat-treating and tempering to make a spring; impressed actually!
• Main Spring - Wow, very impressed here too! Excellent form/shape/polish, with ample torque on both, they wind easily, yet with stored power.
• Action - Very positive and both use the hardened ball bearing to trap the wheel. Note both locks were disassembled and greased/lubes prior to any function testing. This step I strongly advise to do to any new-to-you wheellock lock!
• Now to the most important function ... the Spark Test- Another tie! I tried 3 forms of pyrite in each; sawn cut cubes, raw nodules with a chiseled tip, and my infamous 'crumblies', which look like a large M&M-sized glob of rough beach sand glued together in a matrix (I've a post about such 'crumbly' pyrite pieces on here ... ) ... and they both sparked like a house a'fire with all 3 pyrite forms! Leaves me speechless ...

Well ... looking back up ... there's not much of a comparison there, is there? LOL! Which leads me to again surmise that they indeed came out of the SAME factory. And I don't think it was in India.
Summary - There's just no way i'd ever compare them to a lock from a reknown custom lock builder, however, if you're yearning to build or get into wheellocks and get the opportunity to buy one that looks EXACTLY like these locks ... then I'd go for it!

View attachment 292671

View attachment 292672

Well. It started when one of our cleints from Netherlands asked to see why his two Mendi locks do not work anymore. We took to see them ... and that was first time i could check those locks and touch them with my own hands. And sorry, this is my own opinion as a gunmaker who made many doezns of wheellock replicas ... this is ****** lock which is very far from how reall whellocks looked like. And the mechanism just has got bad geometry. I don't say it won't work. It will and if you are lucky it will work long enough. And it is also cheap i guess. But ... after we rebuilt those two first medni locks we got and made them look and work closer to original locks from early XVII c. ( this is the period such type lock should be good for ) we've got already 8 such locks from different clients asking us to fix them. Which says me two things. This is really mass production lock and i guess with those indian copies there are lot of them. And ... in long terms using this lock it is not so reliable.

The main problem of this lock ... is that the pan cover mechanism does not work there at all. That is funny acutally that they made it look like the originals but did not make it possible for this mechanism to work at all. Thats why when you say the lock has good main spring and make good sparks. This is because you do not have the pan cover working properly there. At least in those locks i saw it is always the case. The wheel in those locks has only about may be 90 degrees of rotation. Which does not allow to move the pan cover after you push a trigger. And when you rebuild it to make it about 240 - 270 degrees rotation ( as it must be with normal wheellock) you understand the main spring is **** and not strong enough. Normally in this situation you should change the main spring ... but that doesn't make sense cause it would be easier then to build a new lock. Changing main spring means changin most of the mechanism. We were able to make this lock working properly with pan cover moving properly when you use it but that was lot of work and rebuilding it.

At the end those Mendi locks looked this way

The third lock is not Mendi , it was made by us.

And here is some video with rebuilt Mendi mechanism. When we recieved it , it was not working at all.

 

[skoda]

I'd say 'batch' produced, then yes. Wanna go in bizness?

I would think that with CNC machines that one could produce a simple but decent wheelock in batches of 100-500, sell them at a 'reasonable price', and still make a little bit of money. But you would have to know what you are doing on the manufacturing side and the design side.

I used to make parts for a small European automobile manufacturer that way. It was profitable but not get rich profitable and most other jobs paid better per hour.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Recently, my Mendi wheellock began failing to lock in the wound position. I saw that the sear that pushes against the ball bearing was a bit mushroomed at the contact and wasn’t pressing the ball deep enough inward. I suppose it needs to be peened or built back to proper length and hardened correctly.
My fix was to snip a small piece of a soda can and insert it between the sear and the ball bearing. This serves as an extension of the sear arm. It works ( locking) when it should and functions well again. This is just a temporary solution however, though I am not sure if I would be able to have it fixed permanently in the aforementioned manner.

 

[Rudyard]

Would you consider these proof that a mass produced wheellock is a viable product?

About 1974or5 I had an Indian firm make me Wheellocks of the c 1660 German cheek stock rifle style since I took a friend's lock to India which they copied piecemeal in several different shops the idea being no rival could avail of MY development .but the assembled lock could hardly be perfect but I made two fine Rifles & retain one . Regardless of the point of making my lock exclusive the merchant couldn't resist peddling them to all & sundry . I gave up on India shorty after but at that time there wasn't much offered in the gunlock line not in UK at least I made a lot of flint shotguns with India locks & Bader Barrels which where probably Shaw Pittsburg barrels for BL gunmakers . only Bill Bader had them just threaded at the breach I bought mostly 12 bore but wish now Ide bought some 16 bores even 20 bores as well other than Local Trade there where no India barrels offered and no "Flint Type locks " as the merchant called them so I took out Lott & the Grice plus an original Nock export lock and they had parts of old English locks so we made them too calling them the A & B locks probably about the Time Bud Siler offered his kits ? .The same firm supplied the India Trade with Enfield's styles & bar locks . I was scrounging like you would for gun stuff in the shops of India bought good flask & moulds in Calcutta & Kathmandu then Lucknow & Cawnpore the Cawnpore dealer gave me a sample percussion lock in 1969. I bought many later Nothing wrong with them a capable artisan couldnt cure . & I bought 12 locks mostly EX E. I .Company ones in Caboul .10 shillings a piece seemed like a good score . Shades of

"Youth was cheap wherefore we sold it ",Gold was good we hoped to hold it ,And today we know the fullness of our gains ". from Kipling's' Xmas in 'India'
Doesn't really apply but sort of close .
Rudyard.

 

[Rudyard]

I would think that with CNC machines that one could produce a simple but decent wheelock in batches of 100-500, sell them at a 'reasonable price', and still make a little bit of money. But you would have to know what you are doing on the manufacturing side and the design side.

I used to make parts for a small European automobile manufacturer that way. It was profitable but not get rich profitable and most other jobs paid better per hour.

Dear Skoda .Good on you I admire enterprise ,anyone's . Iv.e made 5 but cant pretend I have them down pat the biggest bogie being the Pyrites as on clay pigeons or 1/2 hour rifle match its a struggle too get consistency . If for hunting it isn't the same problem, I just use the Gem looking small pieces glued into short sections of 3/8" dowel shaped to fit the dog head & hold the fragment. I once walked 10 days in the local ranges shot 7 ferrol Goats ( considered vermin here in NZ ) But so are Deer .
Regards Rudyard