When does one gun become another?

[Sparkitoff]

Let me explain.....as this will help settle a debate I've come across....
If you had a name brand rifle (CVA, T/C, etc) and you replace the barrel with an after market brand barrel - what is it now? What do you appropriately call it? A CVA with a GM barrel?

Now … Let's say you put on an L&R lock, then have a custom stock made.... what is it? The three main components are no longer related to the brand it started as. You may still have the sights, triggers, buttplate…. you get it. But if the stock, lock and barrel are changed to something other than the original brand ….how do you properly identify it?

Is it a "custom" rifle? Is it a "build"? I have heard that whatever it was originally remains in the description like "A T/C Renegade with a custom stock, L&R Lock and GM Barrel". That seems misleading to me. I have also heard it is a "After market modified T/C Renegade". That doesn't seem to capture it accurately either.

If you were listing this for sale, describing it for insurance or otherwise having to "name it" what are your thoughts on what is appropriate?

 

[Walkingeagle]

It would be no different then buying a GM IBS barrel, pre-inletted aftermarket stock, L&R RPL lock, sand cast butt plate/trigger guard from TOTW then assembling all the pieces together. It did not start life as any factory muzzleloader, but was assembled from aftermarket parts. I called mine a “poor boy plains rifle build” as I wondered the same thing.
One argument however, if you built a vehicle all from aftermarket bolt on parts, I’m sure it would still be called based on its factory name (I know, registration based on serial number likely on frame), but in the eyes of the general populous.
Walk

 

[nkbj]

I name mine.
The Renegade with the shortened length of pull and 22" barrel is Ren.
The 1816 musket might get named Stimpy if the rear sight idea works out OK.
The TC Hawken with the 32" .62 GM rifled barrel is The Rattler because that's what it does to windows.
The Renegade with the 28" fast twist 38"long .52" bore is Navarone.
The .50" bore 31" long smoothie barrel flintlock Deerhunter is Critter Getter.
The .40 bore GPR with 16" twist is Little Sheba ('cause I thought it'd never come back from the barrel maker).

 

[Semisane]

Isn't a Renegade with a GM barrel is a Gemearade?

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have two such rifles. One on a TC 'not really a hawken-hawken' stock with a Douglas barrel and target sights. The other is a TC Seneca base with similar barrel and sight set-up.
I sometimes call them my "poor boy" target rifles. More often I refer to them as "half breed" target rifles.
Really, the only thing you call them that matters is they are "yours".
This is a do yer own thang game. Go fer it.

 

[Col. Batguano]

In a factory cartridge gun it's pretty clear. Change the action and you change the gun. With a ML'er the gun is more popularly defined by the manufacturer or the style of the stock, though that is not a legal definition. Legally, it comes down to what parts are serial numbered. Since in many countries of Europe the actions of modern guns are not considered the gun, but the barrel is, that is the part that is serial numbered.

Let me ask this another way; if you changed the stock and lock, but left the original serial numbered barrel, how would you identify the gun on a police report if it were stolen?

But overall, you are right. With these guns it's a rather muddy territory as to when it ACTUALLY changes from gun X in to gun Y.

 

[bubba.50]

I’ve had a couple T/C’s that ended up the only factory parts bein’ the tang & stock. I just called them mine.

 

[FishDFly]

To borrow one of Zonie's words which I really like and has a lot of applications:

How about "frinkled"?

 

[SDSmlf]

Similar to George Washington’s childhood cherry tree chopping axe being found. All original, except the axe head was replaced twice, and the handle was changed three times.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Let me explain.....as this will help settle a debate I've come across....
If you had a name brand rifle (CVA, T/C, etc) and you replace the barrel with an after market brand barrel - what is it now? What do you appropriately call it? A CVA with a GM barrel?

Not sure why it's that important....

I mean IF I take my vintage VW bug, and drop-in a hopped up VW Engine, it's still a VW...,
If I drop-in vintage Porsche engine, is it now a Porsche? Not according to MVA.
My Geo Storm was made by Isuzu, but carried a Chevrolet emblem...,
So why is a distinction by parts needed for firearms when other things we aren't so concerned?

So I have a Cabin Creek .54 caliber rifle that uses a Siler lock and a Colerain barrel, but it's still a Cabin Creek.
My Dixie Gun Works Mountain Rifle has an L&R Lock..., it's still DGW.
IF I dropped a Colerain LLP Bess barrel into my India origin LLP musket, would folks stop calling it an India Bess, or in one case a curry-gun ?
I'm building a Bess with a Miroku Barrel, a Pedersoli lock, and Virginia made, maple, "Bess" stock with "corrected" stock dimensions to shoot better, and the side plate will be rounded and the butt plate will be from an LLP Bess... It's still a Bess. (OK I confess I'm going to call it my Frankenbess when it's done…,)

I suppose if you change the factory components, you could name it after you.....

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

I just called them mine.

Amen, Bro.
I have a rifle with parts from Jim Chambers, built by Dave Person. But I have it. It is MINE.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I received a PM from someone here that stated they are in the insurance industry. He (I presume) had good advice - and I wonder why he didn't just post, but he didn't say I shouldn't repeat what he said. His advice is for describing a "put together" arm to insure or record (in case it were stolen), to list if for sale, or to identify among many (like to leave it to your heirs). He called it a "Head to Toe Description". Here are his words:
"Start with a general description of type, caliber, barrel type and length, any markings, stock material, type of ignition and triggers"..."Take pictures from both sides and mark accordingly". Example: Half Stock Flintlock rifle, .50 caliber octagon 34" barrel browned, cherry stock with brass buttplate, double set triggers, oak ramrod in two thimbles, adjustable rear sight and fixed blade front sight, overall weight 9lbs 3oz. Inside lock is marked "XYZ". He also suggests two letters and four numbers stamped under the buttplate and says "it can be a definitive identifier and is the least likely place to be discovered".

That makes a lot of sense for insurance, a police report or to leave a memoir with loads for each arm. I like the idea of including a picture of each side of the arm described.

While I am at it, I will probably write a nickname in permanent ink so someone else might one day know what I referred to them as.....

 

[BrownBear]

Similar to George Washington’s childhood cherry tree chopping axe being found. All original, except the axe head was replaced twice, and the handle was changed three times.

Oh yeah.... Or Johnny Cash's 1955, 56, 57, 58, 59 Cadillac song. "I built it one piece at a time, and it didn't cost me a dime...." Got a few of those in my own gun rack!

 

[hanshi]

Strictly speaking, if you build a gun by putting various & sundry parts together then it's a custom. I have a very nice percussion rifle with an accurate, unmarked barrel; all that's stamped on it are the name of the builder and ".45". The stock was carved from a blank and the lock came from, well, somewhere. It's truly a "parts" rifle. So what is it called? How about "custom". Such guns are quite easily identified by the owner. Only one of my several guns has a serial number.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Real easy answer, I call the rifle mine..........

 

[dragnetbill]

I received a PM from someone here that stated they are in the insurance industry. He (I presume) had good advice - and I wonder why he didn't just post, but he didn't say I shouldn't repeat what he said. His advice is for describing a "put together" arm to insure or record (in case it were stolen), to list if for sale, or to identify among many (like to leave it to your heirs). He called it a "Head to Toe Description". Here are his words:
"Start with a general description of type, caliber, barrel type and length, any markings, stock material, type of ignition and triggers"..."Take pictures from both sides and mark accordingly". Example: Half Stock Flintlock rifle, .50 caliber octagon 34" barrel browned, cherry stock with brass buttplate, double set triggers, oak ramrod in two thimbles, adjustable rear sight and fixed blade front sight, overall weight 9lbs 3oz. Inside lock is marked "XYZ". He also suggests two letters and four numbers stamped under the buttplate and says "it can be a definitive identifier and is the least likely place to be discovered".

That makes a lot of sense for insurance, a police report or to leave a memoir with loads for each arm. I like the idea of including a picture of each side of the arm described.

While I am at it, I will probably write a nickname in permanent ink so someone else might one day know what I referred to them as.....

Legal standards and insurance industry standards aside, it doesn't have to become something else until she who must be obeyed catches you and calls it a "new" gun.

 

[Captjoel]

I call all of these Heinz 57 rifles MUTTS! Just like dog breeds, you cannot call your gun a pure bred when they have so many different fathers!

 

[tenngun]

I think they kept a warship in Athens in classical times that had helped defeat the Persians. Over the years it had been repaired often so philosophers wondered if it was still the same ship.
Victory may have no original wood, and constitution less then five percent. We replace our selfs every few years.
I don’t think this was the first time that question has been asked.

 

[rafterob]

Wasn't there a Johnny Cash song that addressed this?

 

[Nyckname]

Wasn't there a Johnny Cash song that addressed this?

See @BrownBear's post above.