when the fire starts

[buckknife]

I want to disscuse what happens when the powder is lite and the patch an ball move down the bore on a swabed bore and a lubed bore that can shoot many times with out swabing.
Now the way i see it if you swab you must do a fouling shot an then a light swab done the same each time.
On a unfouled bore which would be clean, the barrel is too slick and the ball leaves the barrel with out the full compression of the ignited powder behind it.That is why a ball will be out of group on a clean barrel.Thats why i swab in the 54 gpr,so i have a consistant bore getting the full compression of the ignited powder behind the ball.
Now if i introduce a lube that lets me shoot over an over with out swabing it is going to soften the fouling so i could,but it is also going to slick up the bore,has too or i couldnt keep reloading that many times with out swabing.A slick bore is not getting the compression behind the ball that a dryer bore ,lightly fouled consistant bore is.This shows up down range on a target.
Dutch teaches to use as little lube as possible fer this reasion.If you have the Dutch papers and have found the right patch an ball combo and weigh them balls.You also have done the lube test from 4to1 to 7to1 an found out the more lube used the more the groups spread.Thats because i belive that the more lube used the slicker the bore gets.
This are test done with very little lube in the first place and are ment to be done with a consistantly swabed bore.Now how does a lube that slicks the bore enough to reload many times with out swabing effect things down range.
It would be fouled also and keept consistant by the patch going in when loaded an out when fired,but it is a slick bore an will show up down range.Even a swabed barrel that is keept consistant but uses too much lube will have the same results i have found,an i have tryed many combos of beeswax and oils.If your usen too much it will show.
Anybody else have any thoughts about this.Lets keep it a freindly disscussion.I just want a sharing of info from the way each of us see it.

 

[riarcher]

Precisely the point!!!!!! :applause:
Like in archery, " CONSISTANCY " is the key.
I store with bore butter, swab with windex. Windex seems to remove most of the BB from storage. The first round is usually (for me) close this way with follow-ups than any other method I've tried so far.
Equal resistance (consistancy) from first to last shot is what I like. I do swab with moistened windex patch between shots (both sides of same patch, no dry patch. Seems to equalize somehow.
What I do, seems to work, and even if it's wrong,,,, I ain't changing. :shake:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Buckknife,

Taking your concept of increased compression being beneficial, wouldn't a rough, rusty bore then be desireable over a smooth, clean one because it would 'grab' the patch and hold it for the powder to do all it's work? I think your second point, and RIArchers', of consistancy, is the key. Blackpowder explodes, it does not burn. It is consumed very quickly and does not produce the pressures of smokeless powder. True, it is possible to put so much in that it will eject the top of the charge out of a 28" or 32" barrel before it is consumed, but not at a 'normal' loading of less than 2X in grains of the ball's caliber in thousands of an inch.

I load with a minimum of lube mostly because of the patch being in contact with the powder. Lots of lube means lots of 'killed' powder near the patch where the oils have leeched into the charge. The longer it sits the worse it gets.

I don't know about the lighter calibers, but a .50 or .54 ball has enough inertia when combined with a tight fitting patch to hold the charge until it develops a good head of steam. You can tell from the effort required to seat it if it is siding down too easily. I usually have to reposition my hand three or four times on the ramrod for fear of snapping it when it bows out of column in seating a ball. If you can grab the far end of the ramrod and squoosh it down with one push you're probably not using a large enough ball or thick enough patch.

Think about it. A gun that needs to be cleaned between shots is not a practical weapon in a firefight (not that we do that now - but it used to be the case in for those we're emulating) or even a hunting tool where multiple prey can be taken (i.e. small game). It is a target piece and too 'fussy' for rough conditions. Just for grins, try loading a muzzleloader while laying on the ground behind a tree trunk or other cover. A potential cloverleaf group producer becomes less desireable if you can't get it fed without carrying a crate of cleaning supplies into the field. Or, even worse, if you try and get away with a fast second shot and end up with a stuck ball 3/4 of the way down the barrel.

Shooting paper is nice but it don't fill your tummy or protect your top-knot. A gun you can't reload without taking your eyes off an animal that may offer you a second chance may mean the difference in recovering a wounded animal or not. Or following up after a m-m-m-miss.

 

[buckknife]

Ok before i go any farther the fouling shot thing about a barrel being too slick without the right compression is Dutches idea,an i have found a fouling shot does keep it with the rest of the group.The slick barrel from lube that will shoot over an over is my hypotenoose(uneducated guess) ::
The old timmers i have heard did rough there bores at times i have heard,dont know.A fouler shot seems to[url] work.In[/url] a hunting situation i can reload with this dry patch without swabbing if i have to at least three times,i can do it a more number of times if i blow down the barrrel,which dont take a couple of seconds an softens the fouling enough to reload,and it will be close enough to hit a deer in the vitals at 50 yards.How many shots i could do this by blowen down the pipe with sum accracy i dont know.Its thefirst one that counts an if it runs off we all know not to get on the deer right away any how.So i do have time to swab moren likley.
My problem is when i use a lube with wax in it,even lightly,my groups aint what i think they should be.seems like it loads easyer every shot to me,wax melts under heat no doubt and when i shoot it does load easyer,but my accuracy aint great.After shooting a consistanly swabed bore i may be spoiled.I use to be happy keepen in a 3 inch circle at 50,now if they aint in a 1 inch circle i think my group aint no good or needs improvement.
Im a hunter,thats it.Every shot i take at a target is for that purpose.I know that if i was shooten at 25 yards and i have a 1 inch flyer that flyer will be 4 to 5 inches at 50 yards.I wont settle fer any thing less than a 1 hole group at 25 yards in the 54.Any more i only shoot at 50 to 60 yards with that gun an i like to keep 5 prbs in that 1 inch.
Yea i know i dont need that kind of accuracy for sumin as big as a whitetail but getting that group has become as addictive as shooting a muzzle loader.
The 36 i have can be a stinker.When i swab it the fouling gets pushed in the patten breech,which aint very big.So any more i use a lite lubed patch an blow down the barrel,i use a homemade blow tube.Works effectively an i dont have my mouth on the muzzle.I relly havnt tried the 36 with much lube.tryed jojoba oil done in the c-clap thing and it shoot decent with out swabing fer about 12 shots,these werent one hole groups but good enough to keepem all in the 3 inch circle at ranges from 25 to 40 yards.after 12 shots or so the accuracy went south and loading became harder.I didnt know it at the time but jojoba oil is a liquid wax.Slicker than snot fer sure it was and loading in the fouled 36 bore werent no problem for a while but it caught up to me.
Last time out i used the dutch dry patch cut at the muzzle shooting off hand at 35 yards.Blew down the bore every shot with my blow tube and keept all balls in the 3 inch circle for a while.after 10 shots or so it started shooting lower and lower.Didnt load any harder that i could feel but it keept shooting lower.
My hypotinoose(uneducated guess)is that the fouling built up to where it caused drag on the ball and patch combo.Too much friction maybe.
If any of you have a lube you think would work with them same kind of groups,which aint great by no means but good enough fer the bunny or squirrel at them ranges,with out swabing or blowen down the barrel an give me 10 shots er so i would give it a try.
Moose snot perhaps?I do have sum beeswax home brews around here i havnt tryed in the 36 yet,maybe i will next time out.
Im pretty much set in what i do with the 54 but that 36 needs a lot more exploren an experymenten. :haha:

 

[buckknife]

That post was ment fer stumpkiller,but yes we all agree consistancy is what it is about.If i change anything in my shooten it is only one thing,that way i know what its effect is.
Now go shoot an change every thing all in the same shot an have fun :blah:just kidden

 

[buckknife]

Ah manure i did it again That one was ment riarcher instead of me ::at least i was consiatanly wrong in who i replyed to. ::

 

[Stumpkiller]

If any of you have a lube you think would work with them same kind of groups,which aint great by no means but good enough fer the bunny or squirrel at them ranges,with out swabing or blowen down the barrel an give me 10 shots er so i would give it a try.

Well, I can't make sweeping claims for accuracy as I haven't had the chance to test my Moose Snot (four parts oil to one part wax & 1/2 part oil soap) recipe on a slow twist barrel with stiffer loads. I've been shooting low to medium charges in 1:48" twist barrels. It's hard to say what lubes are going to be accurate. Different loads, different patch thicknesses and weaves, differences in how much lube a shooter applies, cast balls, swaged balls, pure lead, plumber's lead, mixed lead, etc. You'll never know until you try.

If you're getting 1" groups at 60 yards in hunting conditions then nothing I can tell you will improve on that!

 

[buckknife]

where do i find the castor oil,grocery store?

 

[Stumpkiller]

CVS or Ekerd Drugstores (in the laxatives isle), a motorcycle shop that caters to two-stroke racing bikes, a hobby store that sells model airplane racing fuel, a health food/natural remedies type shop or a shop that sells soap making supplies. I've been using food grade (the drug store kind) that has no additives (it's clear and odorless). I understand some of the racing castor oil lubes have other additives.