When using Pyrodex, musket caps tighten groups.

[Pacobillie]

Here we go. I have an old TC hawken rifle in .45 caliber. When I bought it, it had ignition issues. Because of that I went to a musket cap nipple and RWS musket caps.

The rifle performed well, shooting fairly tight groups with PRBs, especially with Pyrodex P.

After going through a bit of peer pressure on this site, I went traditional and started using real BP and #11 RWS caps. The rifle shot very well with that combination.

Today, because I was almost out of BP, I decided to try the subs again. I left the #11 nipple on. Groups were awful; of the order of 10 inches at 55 yards. I tried different loads, with Pyrodex P and RS, but to no avail.

Just to verify that it was not something else, I tried FFG BP and got a tight group.

Then I changed the nipple back to the musket cap nipple and tried 70 grains of Pyrodex P again: I got a 1.5 inch 3 shot group. I tried again and got the same result.

The strange thing is that the Pyrodex seemed to ignite well with the #11 caps, but it shot all over the place. With the musket caps, no such issue.

So please forgive me for being non-traditional.
Pyrodex P costs me about half as much per shot as real BP; it is much easier to obtain; there are fewer restrictions to stocking it; and it is safer to handle. This more than offsets the extra $0.02 cost of musket caps vs #11.

I know I am going to pay dearly for saying these things!!!

 

[Bill Hall]

. The strange thing is that the Pyrodex seemed to ignite well with the #11 caps, but it shot all over the place. With the musket caps, no such issue.

Well, a BOOM pretty much sounds like a BOOM. It may be that the musket caps are causing a more efficient ignition, and you just can't tell by the sound or recoil. Since subs need a hotter spark to get it to fire consistantly, I'm guessing the hotter caps (more fire actually) are causing a more consistant burn in the powder, giving you better accuracy.

Not so much a concern with black powder, but I have heard that different caps (#11's) can make a slight difference in accuracy with BP. Just not as big a difference as you describe with the sub. Bill

 

[roundball]

I know I am going to pay dearly for saying these things!!!

Not at all...sounds like you did your homework / testing and came up with the best overall solution to your needs and situation.
Remember, this is YOUR hobby for YOUR personal enjoyment, satisfaction...nobody elses...enjoy!
:hatsoff:

 

[Pacobillie]

I know I am going to pay dearly for saying these things!!!

Not at all...sounds like you did your homework / testing and came up with the best overall solution to your needs and situation.
Remember, this is YOUR hobby for YOUR personal enjoyment, satisfaction...nobody elses...enjoy!
:hatsoff:

What about that new flame suit I just bought? Don't I get to try it? I just mentioned Pyrodex and musket caps in the same sentence. I know it is not as bad as plastic sleeves, jacketed bullets or the unmentionable modern front stuffers, but still! :wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[Bill Hall]

Here's a question. Did the pyro/musket cap combo shoot a tighter group than the black powder/#11 group? If so, it seems you found the right combination of variables using pyrodex, and now you have a high mark to shoot for when working up loads with different kinds of powders. I'll bet you can do the same with black powder, if you feel so inclined. If not, keep doing what you're doing, always with improvement in mind.

Personally, subs are not for me, but I really don't care what others use. My daughter and I even shot up a pound of 777 once (and we survived). I think when people get offended due to another's preference not matching their own, it just screams insecurity. Bill

 

[Pacobillie]

Here's a question. Did the pyro/musket cap combo shoot a tighter group than the black powder/#11 group?

Results were very similar with both combinations. About 1.5 inch groups at 55 yards, using a set of shooting sticks and a chair. There was an average breeze. I used 85 grains FFG BP with #11 cap and 70 grains Pyrodex P. The Pyrodex gave me a higher POI by about two inches, in spite of the reduced charge.

 

[ebiggs1]

Is your scenario unlikely and not probable, yes it is. :hmm: But if you saw the results and you are convinced they are valid even if only in your mind and it makes you a better shot, go for it. I am all in for you. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Two comments about your "tests":

When using subs, must people switch to using a #11 MAGNUM caps, which puts out more fire.

The other thing that some folks have done with success to ignite subs with #11 caps is to drill out the nipple holes to .040"( similar to the diameter of those musket nipples) to allow more fire to get into the powder faster.

I would argue with you about the Tripe 7 costing less than BP, and being easier to get, or less dangerous to store, but I would be wasting my time. YOU believe what you want to believe.

Personally, I would not use Triple 7 powder if you gave it to me. But, that's my problem, not yours, either. :bow:

 

[Rat Trapper]

I know I am going to pay dearly for saying these things!!!

Not at all...sounds like you did your homework / testing and came up with the best overall solution to your needs and situation.
Remember, this is YOUR hobby for YOUR personal enjoyment, satisfaction...nobody elses...enjoy!
:hatsoff:

:thumbsup:
Good reply Roundball!

(my own testing has shown Triple Seven works best for my hunting loads)

 

[Billnpatti]

Pyrodex and most all other substitute powders are harder to ignite. Using #11 caps can give irregular ignition which is solved by the hotter musket caps. The difference in ignition is unlikely to be perceptable to the ear but your gun obviously knows the difference. Your rifle needs the musket caps to ignite the substitutes reliably. Go with what your rifle wants.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Your results don't seem logical. But if it works for you it works. And that is what counts.
However, I have a lingering feeling that if the rifle were given a complete cleaning and degunking of the breech area it would shoot just fine with a new standard nipple and caps.
But, do wat floats yer stick. :grin:

 

[Pacobillie]

You are probably right about the gunking. When I bought this rifle a year ago, the breech was quite gunked up. I have thoroughly cleaned it every time I have used it, and it the ignition has become better over time. Initially, a #11 cap would not even light up the Pyrodex reliably. Now, it does, but apparently not in a consistent manner.

So, for me and this rifle, the musket caps appear to be the solution.

 

[Huntin_Dawg1215]

I agree with what Roundball said, but will add. I have a gun that does very much the same with Pyrodex and a musket cap. I also have one that work better with BP and #11 cap. So at times it is best to listen to the rifle. After all they know best. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Darto]

On the Hodgdon official website they do recommend 5 grains of FFFFg Black Powder behind the main Pyrodex charge (with Pyrodex reduced 5 grains of course) to ignite with a flintlocks. That does work very well in my matchlock, BTW.

Am sure it would make caps ignite better too. No more than 5 grains of FFFFg according to Hodgdon for safety reasons.

This is another reason FFFFg is valuable to keep in my stock. Here in California we only may have a total of 1 pound real BP. It is a felony, not a misdemeanor, which means you don't go to jail you go to the penitentiary. My pound is always going to be FFFFg. That + Pyrodex does it all, IMO.

 

[Darto]

On the Hodgdon official website they do recommend 5 grains of FFFFg Black Powder behind the main Pyrodex charge (and Pyrodex reduced 5 grains of course) to ignite with flintlocks. This has worked very well in my matchlock musket, BTW.

Might would help caps ignite better too. Hodgon says no more than 5 grains FFFFg for safety.

Here in California we only may have a total of 1 pound real BP. It is a felony, not a misdemeanor, which they tell me means the penitentiary instead of jail. My pound prolly always gonna be FFFFg. That + Pyrodex I would guess might be my most versatile option here. I have not shot enough types to really know

 

[feyx0006]

You are changing multiple variables at the same time, and that makes very bad science. The musket nipple was not tried with a real BP load. You do not know if musket caps tighten all groups, or just those using pyrodex. Change only one variable at a time with each experiment. Any conclusion based on the present results would, essentially, be the eqivalent of fallacy.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I had always thought I needed a hotter cap with Triple Seven so I started out with the CCI #11 mag caps. Accuracy was very good. Then I bought a 45 cal TC Hawken from a member here. He had been using reg CCI #11 caps, so I tried it and accuracy was also very good. I still go with the mag caps for hunting, but often stay with the reg caps in my 45 for paper use. I have several tins of musket caps that I got on sale several years ago, but have never tried them.

 

[Dean2]

If one changes multiple variables at one time, it is true that it becomes difficult to attribute the change to a particular variable, but it doens't make the result a "Fallacy" or invalid.

Pacobillie

Since you have struck on a combination of items that workd very well for you, I would keep using that combination in that gun. Others may wish to try it and see if it works in theirs.

 

[Pacobillie]

You are changing multiple variables at the same time, and that makes very bad science. The musket nipple was not tried with a real BP load. You do not know if musket caps tighten all groups, or just those using pyrodex. Change only one variable at a time with each experiment. Any conclusion based on the present results would, essentially, be the eqivalent of fallacy.

With all due respect, I only changed one paragmeter at a time. The rifle poorly with Pyrodex and #11. It shot well with Pyrodex and musket caps. Therefore, only one parameter was changed, i.e. the type of cap used. And that parameter made a difference.

I never meant to say that all rifles will shoot better with musket caps, or that musket caps will render BP loaded roifles more precise. My observations pertain to the specific rifle and the use of subs as propellant in said rifle.

The fact that it shot well with BP and #11 cap is just an indication that the easier ignition of real BP does not require the hotter cap. Therefore, there was no need to make a change in ignition to get an improvement.

 

[Dean2]

To be fair to feyx0006, according to your first post, you changed the cap and the nipple, so you did change more than one variable. As I said in my previous post, this doesn't invalidate your results. It is also something I would try if I was having trouble with accurracy using Pyrodex and your experiment and what you learned, to me is well worthwhile.