When would a soldier "cap" their pistol?

[TrapperDude]

Perhaps we watch too many Clint Eastwood movies. I am not aware of any historical references to the carrying of extra loaded cylinders. Those who depended on percussion pistols often carried multiple loaded and capped pistols.

Hold on a second... Are you telling me that Clint Eastwood movies aren't 100% historically accurate???

Balderdash!

 

[tenngun]

since I am older than dirt, I keep every pistol, revolver, rifle and shotgun fully loaded in the cabin, wagon, and scabbard, for daily carry I keep only 5 of six loaded and capped, if I need more than 5 shots, i carry two or three revolvers, a derringer, and a boot knife, You never know if you may ride into an ambush out there on the freeway or Farm to Marker road.. T.I.C. maybe.......

I carry a revolver as my personal defense weapon. Five shots. I figure I can hit or buy me enough time to get away from danger but,
I’m impressed by ‘two or three revolvers, a derringer and boot knife. Just goes to prove, ‘don’t hassle an old man, he’s too tired to kick your a**,he’ll just kill you instead’.

 

[tenngun]

Hold on a second... Are you telling me that Clint Eastwood movies aren't 100% historically accurate???

Balderdash!

What crap, next they’ll say the Dukes movies wer’tnt real

 

[TrapperDude]

What crap, next they’ll say the Dukes movies wer’tnt real

Seriously. Heck, even Louis L'Amoure is going to be called a purveyor of fake history at this rate.

 

[tenngun]

(Hat over my heart)
Not Louis
(Tear in my voice)

 

[KCode98]

In cowboy days 5 rounds were chambered in a SAA for a simple reason. Accidental discharge caused by a blow to the hammer with it's fixed firing pin. Ever think of a stirrup accidentally falling down after being tossed up to chinch the saddle. Stirrup falls down, smacks the hammer on a loaded chamber and you are shot in the leg. YBLMV (Your blood loss may vary)

No....They....Were....Not.

 

[Whughett]

Single shot pistols, or the two I own have 1/4 cock setting, as does a breech loading civil war carbine I shoot. What other purpose would such a hammer step have then to allow a gun such as those to be carried capped. On a single action revolver a 1/4 cock allows the cylinder to rotate for loading so another method is needed to prevent AD.

 

[Red Owl]

Six years after Robert E. Lee died somebody decided to take his navy Colt 36 outside and fire off all the chambers. The ends were filled with red sealing wax. I did not read anything about any sort of sealant on the caps and Coastal Virginia has a fair amount of humidity. in any event the report is that all SIX chambers fired perfectly.
Now safety is a very personal issue so let every pard scratch his fleas as he best likes. All I can say is if you load six on a percussion, make sure you carefully lower the hammer on a pin (Colt) or Notch (Rem). Many cheap replicas have no pins so load five. If the hammer is on a pin, keep the revolver in a holster where some poke doesn't go playing around with the hammer. I live alone, no kids, etc- so my situation is totally different from someone else.

 

[Whughett]

This sad old Remington, who by its serial number dates back to the civil war has safety notches. The gun had all its parts but was so rusted when it was given to me that the cylinder would not rotate and screws could not be turned out. Evaporust time and labor got it disassembled to where I can restore it to be an interesting wall hanger. But it will never be safe to fire

 

[Tom A Hawk]

What crap, next they’ll say the Dukes movies wer’tnt real

Oh, they were real all right. They just paid no attention to historical time lines. It was always amusing to see him go from a Civil War officer, carrying a percussion Colt in one scene, to a private citizen carrying arms that had not yet been invented, in the next scene.

 

[11Bravo]

I think you have to put settlers, cowboys, civilians, into a different camp as military. Much like a LEO of today to one carrying for a possible "what if" of today's world. I wouldn't hesitate to say all Army, Navy were fully capped. Either single shot or revolver. JMO

 

[KCode98]

Im curious of your information source saying it was common or universal to carry the SAAs fully loaded, as Ive seen a fair amount of information stating they commonly did carry them with 5 rds.

One book* in particular mentioned that when the SAA came out, people were carrying them fully loaded and the hammer in the "safe" notch, but that there were a number of known instances of people having them discharge when something hit the hammer spur or the gun was dropped, the source seems to indicate that the percussion guns were carried fully loaded, and with the hammer between the chambers on the pins that were provided on the Colts, and generally without incident. The unintended discharges, and some ending up shot in the leg as a result started the habit of generally carrying with 5 rds. This was said to be in the mid 1870s after the SAAs started showing up in more numbers for civilian sales (first year or twos production mainly went to military contracts). Wyatt Earp also mentions it in written piece, I believe associated with sales of the Savage pistols in the 1920s, as well as other writers in the early 1900s mentioning it as the old habit, Elmer Keith being another writer mentioning it in the 1930s as being told him by older men that it had long been the common method of carry.

I commonly fully load my Colts type percussion revolvers and have never had one turn to a live chamber when holster carried, though I did have several instances of Colt SAAs carried with the firing pin down between the rims of 44 spl and 45 Colt shells turning and the pin resting on a live primer before I decided I wasnt quite as clever as I thought. One of the holsters I used was a snug fitting half flap that entirely precluded anything snagging the hammer to allow the cylinder to turn.


*The book mentioned may be either Firearms of the American West Vol II by Garavaglia and Worman, or Guns of the American West by Joseph Rosa. Both books relying/quoting heavily on period writings and information. Both have excellent information on a variety of old arms and their use at the time.

- So would it make sense for people to have gone through a Civil War carrying and using revolvers against people while being taught to load all 6 and put the hammer between the cylinders...Only to have afterwards the latest and greatest cartridge firearms come out and decide to run 20% less firepower from them due to the safety design?

- Does it also make sense for such a flawed firearm that were going off due to the safety notch failing to end up being the most sold and carried firearm in the west?

- If most people carried 5 rounds instead of 6, why were they overwhelmingly refereed to as "6 shooters"?

- The killing of Joe Grant has him drunk in a bar and walks over the Jack Finan and and pulls an ivory-handled pistol out of Finan's holster and replaces it with his own. Finan, apparently scared of the drunk man, makes no attempt to stop him. Suspecting, that shooting could start, Billy walks over to Grant, says he admires his new pistol, and casually pulls it out of Grant's holster. Billy knows something that Grant doesn't, namely that earlier in the day, Finan fired three shots with this pistol and never reloaded. Without Grant noticing, Billy spins the cylinder so that the next three shots will fall on the three empty catridges. Just as casually, Billy slips the gun back into Grant's holster. Grant gets steadily more drunk and just as quarrelsome. He walks behind the bar and begins smashing the bottles to the ground, as Billy, not wanting to provoke a fight, joins him. At some point, Grant pulls out his pistol, points it at Jim Chisum, and shouts, "I'm going to kill John Chisum!" Billy then steps in and says to Grant, "Hold on, you got the wrong sow by the ear, this is Jim Chisum, old Uncle John's brother." Infuriated, Grant proclaims that Billy is a liar. As Billy turns his back to ignore him, Grant turns his pistol towards Billy's back and pulls the trigger. CLICK! Hearing the noise, in one swift motion, Billy turns around, pulls out his own pistol, and fires off three shots. The three bullets hit Grant in the head and he crumples to the ground, dead, never knowing what hit him. Billy then walks over to the fresh corpse, looks down at it, and says, "Joe, I've been there too often for you." With the excitement over, the rest of the patrons finish their drinks. Shortly thereafter, Grant is buried in the Sumner military cemetery, without ceremony. 3 live rounds are found in Jack's pistol.

- In 1886 Winchester still advertised the half cock position as a safety feature. Surely by then with all of the supposed failures of the revolvers this wouldn't be thought safe right?

- Speaking of half cock position...During the trial of Curly Bill over shooting Marshal Fred White, a couple things are said of interest. It is known that Bill had 6 rounds in his SAA and also it's said it was an accidental shooting due to a failure of the "half cock" over a live round.

- The US cavalry prior to the SAA was using the Colt “Richards” conversion revolvers in 44 Colt. Per the cavalry instructions, the conversion revolvers were to load 6 and rest the hammer on the "half cock". Thus it would make perfect sense for Colt to utilize and modify this style to work on their new SAA as the "safety notch". But like a lot of things, the old saying stuck "half cock".

- Some didn't use the safety notch of the SAA and instead rested the firing pin between the cartridge heads.

- Silva found it in the Jan. 12, 1876 edition of the Wichita Beacon. It read, “Last Sunday night, while policeman Earp was sitting with two or three others in the back room of the Custom House Saloon, his revolver slipped from its holster, and falling to the floor, the hammer which was resting on the cap, is supposed to have struck the chair, causing a discharge of one of the barrels (sic). The ball passed through his coat, struck the north wall then glanced off and passed out through the ceiling. It was a narrow escape and the occurrence got up a lively stampede from the room. One of the demoralized was under the impression that someone had fired through the window from the outside.”***

- Here is a Colt catalog from 1912 that clearly says how the revolver should be carried. Are we to believe that the AD were so bad in the 1870s-1912 that Colt never thought to fix the problem?





- Here it is 1880 and we are selling 45 Colt box of ammo in amounts of 12. If people only loaded 5 why aren't they sold as boxes of 10? Hmmm







I can go on and on but I came to this conclusion by doing my own research and using common sense. I did not read a book that was published in 1998 and take their word for it.

 

[TrapperDude]

- So would it make sense for people to have gone through a Civil War carrying and using revolvers against people while being taught to load all 6 and put the hammer between the cylinders...Only to have afterwards the latest and greatest cartridge firearms come out and decide to run 20% less firepower from them due to the safety design?

- Does it also make sense for such a flawed firearm that were going off due to the safety notch failing to end up being the most sold and carried firearm in the west?

- If most people carried 5 rounds instead of 6, why were they overwhelmingly refereed to as "6 shooters"?

- The killing of Joe Grant has him drunk in a bar and walks over the Jack Finan and and pulls an ivory-handled pistol out of Finan's holster and replaces it with his own. Finan, apparently scared of the drunk man, makes no attempt to stop him. Suspecting, that shooting could start, Billy walks over to Grant, says he admires his new pistol, and casually pulls it out of Grant's holster. Billy knows something that Grant doesn't, namely that earlier in the day, Finan fired three shots with this pistol and never reloaded. Without Grant noticing, Billy spins the cylinder so that the next three shots will fall on the three empty catridges. Just as casually, Billy slips the gun back into Grant's holster. Grant gets steadily more drunk and just as quarrelsome. He walks behind the bar and begins smashing the bottles to the ground, as Billy, not wanting to provoke a fight, joins him. At some point, Grant pulls out his pistol, points it at Jim Chisum, and shouts, "I'm going to kill John Chisum!" Billy then steps in and says to Grant, "Hold on, you got the wrong sow by the ear, this is Jim Chisum, old Uncle John's brother." Infuriated, Grant proclaims that Billy is a liar. As Billy turns his back to ignore him, Grant turns his pistol towards Billy's back and pulls the trigger. CLICK! Hearing the noise, in one swift motion, Billy turns around, pulls out his own pistol, and fires off three shots. The three bullets hit Grant in the head and he crumples to the ground, dead, never knowing what hit him. Billy then walks over to the fresh corpse, looks down at it, and says, "Joe, I've been there too often for you." With the excitement over, the rest of the patrons finish their drinks. Shortly thereafter, Grant is buried in the Sumner military cemetery, without ceremony. 3 live rounds are found in Jack's pistol.

- In 1886 Winchester still advertised the half cock position as a safety feature. Surely by then with all of the supposed failures of the revolvers this wouldn't be thought safe right?

- Speaking of half cock position...During the trial of Curly Bill over shooting Marshal Fred White, a couple things are said of interest. It is known that Bill had 6 rounds in his SAA and also it's said it was an accidental shooting due to a failure of the "half cock" over a live round.

- The US cavalry prior to the SAA was using the Colt “Richards” conversion revolvers in 44 Colt. Per the cavalry instructions, the conversion revolvers were to load 6 and rest the hammer on the "half cock". Thus it would make perfect sense for Colt to utilize and modify this style to work on their new SAA as the "safety notch". But like a lot of things, the old saying stuck "half cock".

- Some didn't use the safety notch of the SAA and instead rested the firing pin between the cartridge heads.

- Silva found it in the Jan. 12, 1876 edition of the Wichita Beacon. It read, “Last Sunday night, while policeman Earp was sitting with two or three others in the back room of the Custom House Saloon, his revolver slipped from its holster, and falling to the floor, the hammer which was resting on the cap, is supposed to have struck the chair, causing a discharge of one of the barrels (sic). The ball passed through his coat, struck the north wall then glanced off and passed out through the ceiling. It was a narrow escape and the occurrence got up a lively stampede from the room. One of the demoralized was under the impression that someone had fired through the window from the outside.”***

- Here is a Colt catalog from 1912 that clearly says how the revolver should be carried. Are we to believe that the AD were so bad in the 1870s-1912 that Colt never thought to fix the problem?





- Here it is 1880 and we are selling 45 Colt box of ammo in amounts of 12. If people only loaded 5 why aren't they sold as boxes of 10? Hmmm







I can go on and on but I came to this conclusion by doing my own research and using common sense. I did not read a book that was published in 1998 and take their word for it.

Thanks for putting the image from the manual here. It sheds a lot of light on the subject.

 

[Red Owl]

We have been over this a million times and it seems to get no where. In my humble opinion, I agree that most folks in the old west put six cartridges in the new SAA. I think- but have no proof whatever, that they likely lowered the firing pin to rest between rounds. That said, I think maybe a handful of cowboys on bucking horses decided they might be better off leaving one chamber empty due to being bounced around a lot. Probably the number one reason to carry a SAA if you punched cows was incase you got thrown and a steer came after you. You don't really need all 6 rounds.
Most of the old holsters were pretty tight. That is, you cannot easily rotate a cylinder of a revolver in a holster. TRY IT FOR YOURSELF. Put the revolver in the holster and try to cock the hammer. This idea that you could brush against a tree, etc. and the hammer get pulled back and then drop on a live round. Well nothing is impossible but I tried it, rubbing the gun against a doorframe to see how well I could get the hammer back. I say, TRY IT.
That said, the safety issue will never go away.
To me, there is a huge difference between the percussion set up and the SAA. To me, it is okay to load six on a percussion. On the SAA if I was just knocking around, probably load 5.
BUT THERE IS A DILEMMA. The argument is you brush by something that pulls the hammer back and then drops on a live round. If you pull the hammer back the cylinder has to rotate. So........exactly what chamber do you leave empty- the one the hammer is over? If you do that and the hammer goes all the way back it drops on the NEXT chamber with a round in it. Or...are we talking about the hammer just moving back a fraction- no cylinder rotation- and dropping on that chamber?
Next time at the range I think I'll try that, lower the hammer over a live round, point in a safe direction of course. And then try "tripping" the hammer. I'll see if a slight pull and drop of a 1/2" etc. will fire the round. Something for me to try. If it does, I'll let all know.

 

[Whughett]

Would seem the problem would lie in the hammer receiving a heavy enough strike to fire the cap not in it being accidentally cocked.
A little further off thread, the orginial post was on “at what time would a percussion gun be capped”, but I recall some gun makers advertising, “ hammer the hammer, to sell a single action revolver safe to carry fully loaded.

 

[hawkeye2]

Would seem the problem would lie in the hammer receiving a heavy enough strike to fire the cap not in it being accidentally cocked.
A little further off thread, the orginial post was on “at what time would a percussion gun be capped”, but I recall some gun makers advertising, “ hammer the hammer, to sell a single action revolver safe to carry fully loaded.

That was Iver Johnson but they had a transfer bar that came up between the hammer and fireing pin as the gun was cocked like a lot of modern revolvers.