Where Do I Start!?!?

[Jerry Samouce]

The question is then why and how?
So, you're 52, and it's the AWI (Rev War) so that means you were born around 1724, and as a Highlander, so in Scotland.

So you were 22 or 23 when the Jacobites rebelled. The question is, were you forced into immigration ("transported") because during the rebellion you were captured and tried, and sent to Georgia (many many Jacobites went to Georgia, but not all)....or..., did you join the Black Watch prior to the Jacobites, actually fought on the side of The Crown, and then got shipped to various locations, namely Flanders and then Ireland, prior to the F&I? (The military would've liked you to join, being a blacksmith, and you'd have been allowed to make extra money) Then during the F&I you were sent to North America, and following the conflict, you mustered out and stayed in 1762. You would have been 38. I mention this because as an inducement to mustering out in North America, the Brits would've issued you a Bess. but no bayonet

So there is a very good reason you would have a Bess. It really should be a Long Land Pattern, but …, if you got hold of a factory, Italian or Japanese made Bess, I don't think folks would quibble much.

On the other hand because of your age and trade, you're likely to have had a rifle for a while now, so it would likely be of an older style. I'd suggest no smaller than .50 caliber and .54 would be an excellent choice too. Wooden patch box. Barrel from 38" to 42" and..., if you can manage it get it swamped. A Kibler kit with a wooden patch box would be an excellent choice (imho).

Even if the group you're going to join uses a different gun (if your rifle doesn't "work" for the group, they likely use muskets), you will likely want a rifle anyway.

LD

BRAVO, an excellent Analysis!
Very Likely!

However,
The Whitesides in Scotland where protestant border Reivers who where booted out in the late 16th century purge, sent to Ireland. Some snuck off and stayed in Scotland, some stayed in Irerland. Both of those family groups where sweeped up to serve the crown in the war. The trouble maker Whitesides totally hated "Filthy Papists" in Ireland, and we where deported again to the colonies! We where in NC as early as the 1720s. Thus, no Calloden for us. The Whitesides stomping grounds where near Grandfather Mountain area, all the way down to Cowpens. Watching the idiot loyalist Catholic Scotts go off to die at Moore's Creek Bridge would have been utterly confusing to us, as they just got smashed at Calloden. How the heck can anyone be a crown grovelling Tory after that? a minority of the Whitesides where loyalist only because they didnt like the patriot faction of a family due to a land feud in NC and SC. The Patriot Whitesides stayed safely out of the war as long as possible, which is why and when Banister's dragoon burning raids forced the the Whiteside's to finally become involved in the revolution. At that point, it became personal... We seriously kicked British ass after that ! We also used cowpens and Kings mountain as an opportunity to finally eliminate the Tory Whiteside faction as well.. So, yes, the Whiteside's where on all 3 sides of the Revolution.

As a mountain blacksmith located on a trade route, there would have been many opportunities to trade with the Cherokee and those from Tennessee and Virginia. I can't imagine keeping an "old bess" if a newer better shooting Long Rifle ever became a trade opportunity.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Is it worth the savings to buy a used Flintlock?

Depends on the actual flintlock. It worked for me.

You must be very careful on buying a used, or new built flintlock that you find finished, and for sale. Too many are incorrectly finished (imho).

There are a lot of hobby-builders out there who buy pre-made stocks...nothing wrong with that. The stocks are made with extra wood behind where the lock is installed, and they are made to be a close fit for one specific lock. The extra wood is in case the builder chooses a different lock, to give the builder room to install that lock.

…, but if the builder uses the lock for which the stock was shaped, that extra wood needs to be removed, and it too often isn't. (imho)

This isn't limited to plain, beginner rifles, either. I've seen some very high priced, well carved rifles, with too much wood left behind the lock. The builder has the skill to have finished the rifle with a proper lock mortise, it's obvious by the builder's carving skills. Yet, the basic shaping of the lock mortise is...basic..., and not much fun, so it's like they want to get to the "fun stuff" so fast they neglect the proper shaping of the lock mortise. But they then charge big buck$ for the carving...., when they haven't done the basics right. (again imho)

Here are some of what I'm talking about...,




Both of these were priced at around $1800

THIS is more like what you'd expect as a proper mortise...


LD

 

[Grenadier1758]

The old Bess would have been the back up gun left at home when the long rifle was taken hunting or the Bess would be used for militia duty.

A lot of the Pennsylvania rifles moved along the over mountain (Great Warpath) trade route. These rifles would have influenced rifles further west. Therefore the Early Virginia rifles should become interesting. The Kibler Early Colonial or the Mark Silver rifle particularly.

 

[Grenadier1758]

As LD has pointed out, way too many kit guns are built with way too much wood left in the stock. The two top guns have way too much wood behind the lock. Often way too much wood is left in the fore end. The barrel holds the stock in place.

Research here is your friend.

 

[Jerry Samouce]

As LD has pointed out, way too many kit guns are built with way too much wood left in the stock. The two top guns have way too much wood behind the lock. Often way too much wood is left in the fore end. The barrel holds the stock in place.

Research here is your friend.

Yup, I have LOADS to learn!

 

[Jerry Samouce]

How much money does it cost? All of it.

JEEP = Just Empty Every Pocket...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The old Bess would have been the back up gun left at home when the long rifle was taken hunting or the Bess would be used for militia duty.

Ah well not necessarily. It was sans a bayonet, so it was all purpose except for "proper war", IF it was issued as a muster-out weapon. Fighting "savages" not being "proper warfare" in that era....

Kind of a moot point as Jerry's people are part of the first group coming over from Britain. The muster out muskets were for Black Watch that stayed after the F&I.

Watching the idiot loyalist Catholic Scotts go off to die at Moore's Creek Bridge would have been utterly confusing to us, as they just got smashed at Calloden. How the heck can anyone be a crown grovelling Tory after that? …, there would have been many opportunities to trade with the Cherokee and those from Tennessee and Virginia. I can't imagine keeping an "old bess" if a newer better shooting Long Rifle ever became a trade opportunity.

Well first it was 30 years after Culloden, and second, England was the number one military at the time, it was thought. (I think the Germans were better, but the average British subject apparently didn't think so or had any idea on comparison.) So IF you are a Highlander and you do remember, you come from a situation where you could not worship God as a Catholic, not legally, but here in the colonies you could. So..., do you back the rebels, and likely get your arse handed to you again, and get transported to The West Indies or Australia (high death rates) or do you back the superpower who is likely to win, and you get to keep the tiny bit of freedom that you have now?

Here in Maryland the Catholic colony, the Catholics on the Eastern Shore of the colony backed Britain, because they had been forced by Protestants in the colony, decades earlier, to stop openly worshipping as Catholics. The Crown after a time reversed the colony's laws, and at least they could worship in their homes, but no Catholic churches operated at that time. So they expected if they went Independent, they would again be second-class citizens. Remember, the "freedom of religion" bit was until long after the AWI ended....

Yes having been here for many years, you would probably have something other than a Bess, since you likely did not get one from mustering out. The idea that an "old Bess" would've been scorned is too much modern thinking, however, from my observation. Especially for a frugal Scott...and that's redundant. As a smith, you'd likely not have worries affording powder and ball...

The rifle you would've had was likely not from Virginia, and definitely not from what would one day be Tennessee. More than likely something like a Lancaster type rifle, coming down along the Wilderness Road, Southwest, then going South into NC by way of Big Lick (Roanoke VA). Hence the suggestion, plain, wooden patchbox, and swamped barrel.

LD

 

[Jerry Samouce]

ummm, Whats a "Lancaster type rifle, plain, wooden patchbox, and swamped barrel"????
Even though it would be coming down along the Wilderness Road, Southwest, then going South into NC by way of Big Lick (Roanoke VA).

As I said...I am Flintlock clueless...

 

[Jerry Samouce]

BTW... Here is some of my "show off" wood working skills displayed in my hand made cherry wood kitchen table. so I am not afearen no gun stocks...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Something like this …



Or...,



A "swamped" barrel flares at the breech and muzzle, and is thinner in the center. It's lighter that way.

LD

 

[Jerry Samouce]

Something like this …

View attachment 26148

Or...,

View attachment 26149

A "swamped" barrel flares at the breech and muzzle, and is thinner in the center. It's lighter that way.

LD

Oooooooooo.... prettttty!
What an elegant form...
I am SOLD on the Burl Maple...
THAT is soooo happening no matter what I end up with!

Does it shoot well?
Whats the caliber?
Who makes those?

 

[Jerry Samouce]

what is Southern Mountain Rifle?

 

[Coot]

The place to start is deciding whether you are going the military route which involves joining a unit and adhering to their standards of accuracy (and possibly using their approved suppliers) or to go the civilian route (which includes militia). As a blacksmith in his 50s, you would be much more likely to be a civilian, enjoying a more comfortable and profitable life. At a number of events, blacksmiths are welcome to set up portable forges and to sell period items that they have made. Since the first "requirement" at any event is to look like a participant instead of a spectator or visitor, clothes are the essential starting point, not rifle, tent or other gear (see above about military units & their standards before even getting clothes). If going civilian, you have more options re colors, style etc. as you would not be wearing "issue" gear. "Small clothes" - basic items of clothing are needed & worn by everyone. A correctly made white linen shirt is THE basic male garment. Add a pair of breeches in any typical 18th c color, a pair of stockings & garters, a pair of buckle shoes, a weskit (linen for summer, wool for winter) & a cap (cheaper than a hat for starting out & what would normally be worn when working anyway) would be a basic outfit that would allow you to wander around any event while looking the part. Hopefully Fort Dobbs will not need to get cancelled due to corona but the way things are going, I won't be surprised.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I'm thinking that the Colonial Virginia rifle is what you would find interesting.

Here's a link to Jim KIbler's Colonial Rifle kit. You can look around o the site to view his galleries and drool over his kits.
https://www.jimkibler.net/colonial-rifle-kit-gun-specifications.html

One of the KIbler colonial kits finished by a customer. Note the trim panels surrounding the lock and the slender fore stock profile.

The Southern Mountain Rifles are a later evolution of the long rifle. As the builder's moved west into Tennessee they developed a style unique to the conditions between the mountains and the Mississippi River. The SMR style is more associated with 1810 to 1850.

 

[Jerry Samouce]

What's the difference in the firing experience between 50 cal 54 cal and 58 cal?
Is one caliber ball more expensive or harder to find over the others?

 

[MacRob46]

Short answer....
1. Not much
2. Cost a little more the bigger they are and not hard to find at all.

 

[tenngun]

A . 50 weighs around 180 grains, .54 about 220 and .58 about 260. You will talk to shooters and all will have a favorite load, but most is between 60 and 100 grains of powder in all these guns. So cost is real similar. Flint runs some where around $2.50 per flint. Rifle flints are general smaller then smoothbore flints but about the same cost. Some flints crack on the first shot, some last a hundred. Most give around thirty.
Rifles of the revolution tended to be bigger then after. We tend today to shoot bigger then folks did back in the day.
Just going to hazard a guesstamite here, but I would think over .54 was rare in revolutionary times, and .45 was not uncommon...but odd sizes pop up .47 or .49, not made today.
As a civilian don’t forget your age. You could well have a gun you bought new twenty years before... and a gun you bought used that’s older then that.
America is a land of rifleman, but don’t forget any place, even on the frontier, smooth bores outnumbered rifles.

 

[James Edmisson]

Welcome to the forum Jerry!

There is no shortage of enablers on this forum, lol!

 

[Grenadier1758]

What's the difference in the firing experience between 50 cal 54 cal and 58 cal?
Is one caliber ball more expensive or harder to find over the others?

In terms of firing experience, there's not much difference. The 58 might have more recoil as more powder is used to get accuracy on target.

The first question to ask is what purpose do you want to do with the rifle? A 50 is good for target. A 54 can be used for hunting and can be good for target. The balance with a swamped barrel is really good. Cost is similar for all 3 caliber. The 50 caliber ball is easiest to find. The most difficult component to find is real black powder. Storage regulations make selling black powder more of a problem to vendors. So much so that some sporting goods won't stock it. No synthetic black powder equivalent powder will fire reliably in a flintlock. Next most difficult is the flint.

 

[No Deer]

A friend of mine said that for a lot of information on Scotts in NC, you should check out these books, they are full of a lot of information that would help you. I have not read these books myself, so I cannot comment on them except to say my friend is very knowledgeable.

The first book, and he said probably most informative to what you want, is "Deerskins & Duffels" by Katherine E. Holland.

"The Hunting Pioneers1720 to 1840" by Robert John Holder.

"Lachlan McGillivray, Indian Trader" by Edwin J. Casnen.


"Scottish Highlander in Colonial Georgia" by Anthony Parker.

Again, I cannot personally recommend any of these as I have not read them, but when it comes to historical information, I trust my friends judgement.

He also told me that the type of gun you would want to use (and this would be dependent, as some others have said, on what is the preferred gun in the reenactment group you join), is Hamilton's type G, see T M Hamilton, Colonial Frontier Guns pages 68 to 72. Also the Bumford gun at Colonial Willimsburg.

Another place to look is here on this website, click on this link:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/carolina-type-g-trade-gun-info-needed.7260/