Which gun to buy?

[drakecreek67]

After listening to the local experts I have realized I have made a $700 mistake on the rifle I bought.I like the rifle I got but it is not historically accurate for the time period I want to portray.I am portraying the 1750-1760's time period in Illinois.I am looking at either a Northwest Trade gun,a French Fusil Type D or a French Tulle Fusil De Chase.My question is.Is a round to octagon barrel period correct?Thank you

 

[tenngun]

yes oct/round barrles are at least good back to the 16th century.You'll want a fowler french gun or musket,as rifles were rare,not unknown but few and far between

 

[Grenadier1758]

By all means the choice should be along the lines of the French style smoothbores. The Northwest Trade gun isn't really available during your selected time period.

The other question to be answered is location and country affiliation. English militia would not commonly use a French gun. French milice would have an older musket.

Tell us about what you are looking to represent, then the choices may become clearer.

 

[Alden]

I'm curious as to what gun you bought that's "wrong."

You can always go older... 1728/46 Charleville maybe? Things got passed on for generations.

 

[akapennypincher]

Caywood anything if you want a quality Smoothebore, Danny's stuff is 110% RIGHT.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

Caywood anything if you want a quality Smoothebore, Danny's stuff is 110% RIGHT.

Based on what documentation??? I agree that Caywood guns are good quality guns but a North West trade gun or southern long rifle would still be wrong.

The make up of the Illinois country while still overwhelmingly French & Native would have began to see English intrusion in the 1760's after the war such as the trading company Baynton, Wharton & Morgan. It all depends on how serious you want to get on your persona and how correct you want to be for the time & place in question. If you focus on a French persona that has been around since before the war, then likely your smoothbore is going to be of French making. If you are new to the area recently arrived after the war and are of English decent then that opens the possibility for an English made piece. I would check out the books "Of Sorts for Provincials" and "Flintlock Fowlers". Both will give you an idea of the types of arms available. If I were going with a French gun I would get in touch with Alex Efremenko who focuses primarily on the french trade gun and is very reasonable in his pricing. Mike Brooks makes a fine fowling piece as well.

 

[Snow on the Roof]

I am curious as why the "Northwest Trade Gun", a contemporary term for English trade guns, would be inappropriate for post F&I war Illinois? The Mackinaw (sp?)was in service. The trade guns of the Fur Trade era would be wrong but why not a Type G ( another contemporary moniker )?

Snow

 

[Loyalist Dave]

such as the trading company Baynton, Wharton & Morgan

In Sons of a Trackless Forest by Mark A. Baker there are extensive inventory lists from BW&M, and that firm's trading post, located in Kaskaskia, IL, sold rifles and fusils. So, be certain your rifle is incorrect before ditching it and going for a different gun.

"Northwest Trade Gun", a contemporary term for English trade guns

Actually I was taught that the "Northwest" trade gun was a label for a specific English trade gun, referring to a trade gun of particular length, trigger guard shape, and specific lock with specific markings. While "trade gun" could refer to the NW trade gun as well as the "Carolina type G".

LD

 

[Oudoceus]

There are a lot of skilled builders turning out quality guns. The main problem I have with most of them is that they don't offer guns with the proper barrel lengths that were most common during the period you specify. It's better now than in the day when one was hard pressed to find a barrel over 36" but 41 and 42 inch barrels were rare. The guys mentioned by TOMMY BRUCE are exceptions. They produce accurate reproductions of smoothbores from that time. If you want to go the kit route you might want to look at the R. E. Davis fusil kit. I am happy with the parts and service I got from Davis.

 

[Ranger1759]

There is a big difference in the northwest trade gun which was a later variation of the early English trade gun more to your time period....check out NorthStar west....and look at the early vs. the northwest...and you will see the difference...

 

[Oudoceus]

NSW makes beautiful guns which are said to be HC/PC but the longest barrel he offers is 41".

 

[Capt. Jas.]

There is a big difference in the northwest trade gun which was a later variation of the early English trade gun more to your time period....... look at the early vs. the northwest...and you will see the difference...

I think you will find Northwest guns (as well as their moniker) go back at least to the 1750's.
There are also some guns given the MODERN label of "early English" that are quite frenchified in some aspects and are in my opinion quite time and area specific as well as dissimilar to the majority of English trading guns.

 

[pargent]

Yes English flint trade guns and muskets run all the way through the 18th& 19th century but with a evolution of style changes ,also directly related to their intended market as well .

 

[drakecreek67]

My persona is a hunter and scout out of FT.des Chartres and I want to be as historically correct as possible.How long should the barrel be?I personally like a longer barrel.The rifle I bought is early Lancaster.Thanks to all for your help

 

[Grenadier1758]

Have you visited with the milice at Fort de Chartres? The Chasseures du Datcherat explore the transition from the French longhunters to the English. In any event, be sure to schedule the October F&I event the first full weekend or the Woods Walk in November.

Take your time to do the research. See you at the fort.

 

[sumoj275]

Caywood anything if you want a quality Smoothebore, Danny's stuff is 110% RIGHT.

I thought he used maple too, isn't walnut the wood that should be on one of the NW Trade Guns?

 

[Tommy Bruce]

I am curious as why the "Northwest Trade Gun", a contemporary term for English trade guns, would be inappropriate for post F&I war Illinois? The Mackinaw (sp?)was in service. The trade guns of the Fur Trade era would be wrong but why not a Type G ( another contemporary moniker )?

Snow

I honestly don't know if the Mackinac guns would have made it this far south or not. That is certainly a possibility. The term "North West gun or trade gun" seems to cover a gun that changed in appearance over the years. I have also read that the "Type G or Carolina gun" was distributed heavily in the southern region. On pages 53-56 in Of Sorts for Provincials, there is a fowling piece that is fairly plain but with the serpant side plate seen on so many early trade guns. It was built by Richard Wilson in London. I think that gun is an excellent representation of what would've been available to natives as well as whites of the lower to midling classes. Regardless of if you were native or white, you bought what you could afford. That early Lancaster might work for 1760's De Charte. While the Baynton, Wharton & Morgan trade lists do not specify where the rifles were made, one would have to think that since they were based in Philadelphia they would've taken advantage of the Eastern Pa. gunmaking trade when securing rifles.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

My persona is a hunter and scout out of FT.des Chartres and I want to be as historically correct as possible.How long should the barrel be?I personally like a longer barrel.The rifle I bought is early Lancaster.Thanks to all for your help

French,native,mixed blood or English? This is also one of those cases where a decade makes a huge difference. Are you working for a trading company or supplying meat to the fort as an independent hunter? I doubt there were any English Hunters supplying food to a French garrison, however one could make the point that a french hunter could've hung on after the war and found employment in a trade that he knows well for the new English garrison or working for a trading company as a hunter.

There were fowling pieces with barrels in the 38-42" range, but I believe it was said that many were longer. The gun I mentioned in the previous thread had a 47 5/8" .65 (roughly 16 bore) barrel. There is a fowler on a previous page in the same book with a 41" barrel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

While Fort de Chartres was the western frontier of New France, the area had been settled for about 50 years prior to Captain Stirling and the 42nd Highlanders arriving and taking control of the Fort. Provisions for Fort "Cavendish" were available from the French settlers still in the area. Hunting for provisions was not the necessity that it would have been at forts such as Fort Massac.

Hunting would have been for hides to sell at the trading posts in Kaskaskia. With the British presence, the availability of English or colonial made firearms becomes more likely. The suggestion to look at the firearms in "Of Sorts for Provincials" is likely to be the best source for the type of firearms used in the area of the fort. Perhaps an old French military arm or French trade gun. A little later the English trade gun or Carolina fowler would be available.

 

[okawbow]

I also wanted to get a gun for the same period, and ended up with a French Infantry musket, 1728/46. It was surely available in southern Illinois at the time. I re-did the stock a little to make it more pc. I am planning on "de-militarizing it some, by browning the steel. I might even shorten the 46 1/2" barrel a little, and solder on a front sight blade.
photo (1) by okawbow, on Flickr

I'm sure plenty of military muskets got into the hands of civilians, either through sale of surplus or militia.