Which Indian-made fusil de chasse is best?

[palladius]

Hello all,

I know I've opened a can of worms with my first post after my introductory post and many are thinking, "here we go again." :wink:

Well, not for me, this is my first post! Ok, I'll admit, I've read dozens if not hundreds of posts on the forum on this issue over the past month before posting but I still have questions.

I'm looking to get a fusil de chasse in coming months, if not sooner. If I can I will get a used Centermark, TVM or custom if I can get it reasonably--a few hundred more than an Indian (I'm scanning gun sites and calling gun shops). I'll concede the wisdom of going that route first. I don't have the skill to build a TOW kit, it would look worse than any Indian and those kits are expensive for something you have to put together yourself!

Ok, now that is out of the way, I would still like an honest opinion which of the 3 major importers of Indian muskets makes the best FDC: MVTC, Loyalist or Veteran (Flintlock Repair and King's Forge both seem to offer Veteran Arms). My impression is that Veteran Arms is the clunkiest, both from a video they show, their pics and admission in an email their musket weights 9 pounds. They are the cheapest of the 3 at $575. (Loyalist is $588 and MVTC is $675 and about to go up.)

The other two, Loyalist, 8.2 pounds, and MVTC, who claims 7 pounds but posts I have seen puts it at 8. Length: VA--62 inches, Loyalist, 60.5 and MVTC, 59 inches (see, they're not all made in the same factory in India).

So, if I go Indian it seems it's down to Loyalist and Middlesex. Has anyone owned or handled both? I'm looking for impressions about workmanship, balance, accuracy, reliablity, how well they spark. Also impressions of the two companies overall.

Thanks and sorry for opening the can of worms for those of you who have been down this road many times. :v

 

[Ike Godsey]

not sure if that really helps you, but if i where to buy a curry fussil, i would go with this one .

i know that is an european seller, but i am sure this one would be available in the US too.
as for my studies, this tulle comes close and if done a little "aging-job" it could turn out to be a good looking one.

 

[Matt85]

you should know that the gun from Loyalist Arms will cost you around $741.00 (give or take $1.00).

their exchange rate is dated, the US dollar is worth alot less now.

i think if i was going to buy a fusil for hunting, i would spend much more money on it (TVM or better). now if your planning on using this primarily as a reenacting piece or just goofing around at the range then the india guns arent a bad choice.

-Matt

 

[caddo]

For just a little more I would buy an american made gun. TVM or others would be a better use of your money. You can get a good used gun as well. just my thoughts

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well I have had really good results from Loyalist Arms, and as for price, you need to email them as they may mantain the advertised US price even with dollar devaluation, they may not...,

As for the LA fusil de chase..., I thought French fusils were all steel/iron mounted, but the LA product pictured has some brass hardware.???.., maybe send them an email to be sure.

As for the European maker suggested in a previous reply..., I don't like the shape of their lock plate, if that matters to you. I think it should have more of a bend or banana shape.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

You said:

I would still like an honest opinion

In my opinion that is like looking for the world's tallest midget.
Other opinion is: Don't do it. Buy something else.

 

[Ike Godsey]

As for the European maker suggested in a previous reply..., I don't like the shape of their lock plate, if that matters to you. I think it should have more of a bend or banana shape.

LD

look here and see pics.

ike

 

[rickystl]

If, as you say, have a few months you should keep looking. I've noticed a used Centermark turns up for sale now and then - especially on Gunbroker. There's a good chance that between the Forum Classifieds and Gunbroker that one will turn up over the next 3-4 months. Here's a Centermark I bought second hand at a local gun show a couple years ago. Had the stock refinished. Good luck on the search. Rick.

 

[palladius]

Hi,
Surprisingly Loyalist's prices on their site are up to date. I had contacted them to be sure. With shipping to my house the cost is $654.

 

[palladius]

That European "curry" looks exactly like MVTC's, right down to the shape of the thumbpiece, judging by this photos from an earlier thread:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/235958

The shape of the lock doesn't throw me too much, I know it's wrong.

I'll admit I'm being sorely tempted by TVM, the cost is steep but "only" about 400 more than a new Indian, except 6-8 months is a long time to wait for a gun you want to shoot now. :grin:

My main uses for it in declining order: first, a fun gun at the range and my homemade range in the back 30 acres, 2. possibly taking up F&I milice reenacting (on top of Napoleonic now. And yes, my M. 1777 is an Indian-made from MVTC) 3. possibly hunting.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

Sent ya a PM, this dirty laundry has been aired before and I don't really feel like starting a fight.

 

[Matt85]

Hi,
Surprisingly Loyalist's prices on their site are up to date. I had contacted them to be sure. With shipping to my house the cost is $654.

they are not up to date at all. the company charges in CDN, go to google and type in canadian dollar to US dollar. the current exchange rate is not in our favor.

i just bought a gun from them monday, they charged me around $735 canadian which came out to $741 by the time it hit my acount in US dollars.

-Matt

 

[palladius]

Ok, this is what they quoted me in their email Sunday for prices, including shipping:

"Total cost....$ 654.00 US/ $ 679.00 CDN"

I figured the site was out of date which is why I contacted them for a firm quote but it isn't, at least for that gun. They guaranteed the price through February. They are basing the price on U.
S. dollars.

 

[Okwaho]

Well I have had really good results from Loyalist Arms, and as for price, you need to email them as they may mantain the advertised US price even with dollar devaluation, they may not...,

As for the LA fusil de chase..., I thought French fusils were all steel/iron mounted, but the LA product pictured has some brass hardware.???.., maybe send them an email to be sure.

As for the European maker suggested in a previous reply..., I don't like the shape of their lock plate, if that matters to you. I think it should have more of a bend or banana shape.

LD

Fusils de chasse by Tulle made for the King through the Ministry de la marine were for the most part iron mounted and were shipped primarily to Canada and Acadia. Bouchard {THE FUSIL DE TULLE IN NEW FRANCE 1691-1741,page 19}refers to ships bound for New France and the islands being required to carry four buccaneers or hunting muskets with the latter being brass mounted.

As to the lock shapes I am unable to find any Fusils de chasse with banana shaped locks. They are not as straight as later Germanic locks but rather very slightly concave on the bottom. These banana locks seem to have gone out of style with the emergence of the Berain style around the turn of the 18th century and also seem to have been confined to military locks.

I read the original post and as to the question of what constitutes "the best of the Fusils de chasse" the better question is which is the lesser of evils.Fusils de chasse of the late 17th and very early 18th century are extremely rare but I don't think any of them have round faced banana locks.In my opinion none of the guns mentioned would be historically correct without major reworking on them especially the comb treatment of the stocks and the overall clunky appearance. The Loyalist Arms is to me the least correct and the others don't have satifactory pictures.I think the Centermark with iron mounts could be OK although the sideplate with the front medallion and rear piercing is incorrect and should be inlaid rather than surface mounted.The barrel is too thick,too short and untapered but these cannot be corrected.

It should be noted that in addition to Tulle, St. Etienne and other makers produced Fusils de Chasse

As always I welcome responsible opposing comment

Tom Patton

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW I held a Middlesex FdC last weekend and there was enough extra wood on it through the breech area, lower and upper forends, to make another musket of PROPER proportions!

Save your $$$ and buy elsewhere, as I too have seen used C'Mark FdCs selling for $600-800 at gunshows ...

 

[Okwaho]

I have long thought that the Centermark gun could with some judicious tweaking be made into a reasonable facsimile Fusil de chasse.Of course the barrel length,thickness,and lack of taper can't be corrected although Tulle de chasses and I suppose others varied in barrel length and many were cut back during their period of use. As I said there were some brass mounted Tulle de chasses so you could live with that if the Centermark gun were brass mounted. The often found incorrect sideplate with the medallion and pierced rear section can be corrected with a proper one.Original de chasse sideplates are inlet and I think the Centermark plate may be a surface application.Depending on which lock is used some tweaking can make it look much better. As to the wood how much needs to be removed can vary depending on your woodworking ability.

Another problem with the various repro de chasses is the hump at the rear of the comb.TOW's new catalogue shows an original de Chasse right above their precarve stock and its comb vividly contrasts with the hump on rthe precarve stock.The butt architecture is the prime feature on the de chasses especially the Tulles and although they will vary somewhat the affect produced by the various stockers remains the same.

As always I welcome responsible opposing comments :v :bow:
Tom Patton

 

[tecum-tha]

I would strongly advise to buy a fusil from Tip Curtis or from another quality supplier. It is very tempting to buy cheaper stuff to fulfill the urge to own one. But: The happiness about a gun, that does not function properly, will quickly spoil this happiness. If the problem is not easily fixable, you have to spend more cash or even end up with an unusable clump of steel and wood.
A quality built FDC is imho more reliable, less prone to problems and will not require you to make changes in order to get the gun to an acceptable status, be it in function or aestetics. If anything would ever break and need replacement, the replacement parts are usually available right here. Another example is the high percentage of low quality percussion guns on the market, but percussion systems are usually easy to fix. Low quality flint guns are out there, too, but they seldom are easy fixes and sometimes are completely unfixable or completely unreliable. Been there, done that. But to each their own.

 

[juancho]

:hmm: indian made and best in the same sentence??? :nono:

 

[palladius]

Hello all,

So, an update to this topic from months ago. I ended up not getting an Indian made FDC after all but a second hand American made from TOTW that had been built from TOTW parts. The cost was only $25 more than I would have paid for an Indian from MVTC. I couldn't go wrong.

Brass furniture with a nice patina. Walnut stock. It came with a homemade peep sight which I took off while shooting. I bought a new tang bolt and aged it and used it in its place. In the picture you can see the sight back on the gun.

I put 20 rounds through it. No problems with ignition at all. Shot at paper, plus a sheet of iron, milk jugs of water and a post. The first two targets are here and at 25 yards the groups are good but definitely hitting to the left. All offhand though I tried a few shots sitting in a chair with a sawhorse as a makeshift bench rest but with the snow it wasn't exactly the steadiest platform. Point of aim was center or at 12 on the black. Second target I tried experimenting with the point of aim a little and cheek placement, which is why it's scattered. I could go all Kentucky windage but really want to know where it's hitting first.

I will probably try it with the peep sight next time, if only to train my eye and cheek where to be. The previous owner may have been on to something. The two shots I did on a can with the sight after putting it back on were right on target. I probably won't put a lot more through it until it gets warmer out though and I can properly shoot it from the bench! This was more plinking I suppose.

It was a great purchase and thanks to all in this thread and privately for the advice given.

I'm not criticizing Indian guns. I have a M. 1777 I use for reenacting and shooting the occasional ball through and while it's fun and reasonably accurate it never grouped like this and this handles beautifully, though that could be the French design. The workmanship on this is far superior to my Indian and Track considered this kind of a rough gun.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Art! Hey, good shoot'n. Glad you are happy with that gun. Rick. :hatsoff: