Which off-the-shelf Hawken/Plains rifle is best?

[swquiro]

At the risk of asking you folks to once again beat a dead horse, I pose the following question. Which of the following rifles is probably best (durability and performance) or is there really a dimes worth of difference?
I include TC Hawken/Renegade, Lyman GPR/Trade rifle, and Investarms hawken (Cabelas). I exclude CVA and Traditions from this comparison. Ever since so many BP shooters jumped on the in-line bandwagon, many, many used sidelocks have appeared on the market, some at bargain-basement prices, and Lord knows, I certainly need another gun in my collection. Also, somewhere I read that certain parts among these brands are interchangeable. If true, does that mean a certain communality of manufacture? Many thanks.

 

[roundball]

You're right, you'll get a lot of responses, but shut-in here due to the freak snow & ice storm, I'll give you one answer...TC Hawken.
In my experience with them since the lates 80's, and with a houseful now in percussion and flintlock, and in several calibers, they have been outstanding over all the years.

TC's lifetime service is 2nd to none, they're a lot of quality for the money, good looks, rugged, accurate, and reliable.
Except for one new rifle, every other one I've bought has been "used" in mint condition (a.k.a.hardly used at all) and I usually buy them in the $250 range...resale value holds up the same way.

If you're looking for a relatively low cost, high quality, accurate muzzleloader, that you can shoot year round plus fill your deer tags with every year, they are very hard to beat. If you're a purist looking for something strictly period specific, they are not designed for that.

Standard barrels typically have a 1:48" twist which I've personally shot PBR's and conicals in with complete satisfaction. Longer, 1:66" RB barrels are also available from TC Arms Fox Ridge store in NH which are very accurate with PBRs.

 

[RussB]

I guess you could say I "may" have both, (Since Lyman Rifles are made by Invest Arms) and if there is a lot of difference, I am not astute enough to see it. The TC is a Penn. Hunter w/1:66 twist in .50cal, the other an Invest Arms Hawken in .54cal w/1:48 twist. I have come to "favor" the 1:48 twist since it shoots a PRB as well as a 1:66, and does a remarkable job with conicals. For years I was strictly a PRB shooter and "would rather fight than switch" until I had the oportunity to take an Elk with a 480gr cast conical. To say it was impressive would be an understatement. On the other hand, I think there is nothing more satisfying than passing the day shooting PRBs'in the Penn. Hunter. It has taken it's share of deer, even won a few "casual" matches, and I love the way it balances. but, like roundball said, you are certain to get a lot of responses on this subject and there just may not be a correct answer by others. It will most likely be your choice when the smoke clears......and that's what counts.
Both are fine "off the shelf" choices IMHO.
Russ

 

[Birddog6]

IMHO, the best buy for the money is the Lyman.

You will most likely have changed everything on the T/C before it will shoot a R/B accurately. That is why you hear of most everyone with a T/C changing the locks, barrels, triggers, stocks, sights, etc. I don't thing the guys are doing all of that for the fun of it..... You don't hear that on a Lyman. Once in a while to get a small bore in same gun or someone messed a barrel up. The Lyman will shoot a RB good new right out of the box & I have only ever seen one T/C ever do that with it's 1-48 twist, to it is said that some do. Oh, you will find the key for the T/C eventually, if you can deal with it that long... The slower twist of the Lyman is much more forgiving & finding a good load in a day is easily obtained if you do your part right.

New the T/C is considerbly more $ , used they sell for the same price & you will lose 1/2 of your investment on the T/C when you sell it used, and considerably less loss on the Lyman.

The T/C may be a lil prettier if pretty & real nice finish is what you are looking for. If it were me I would buy 2 used Lymans & leave the new T/C at the store.

Everyone keeps bragging on the T/C warranty, which is falling under some scrutiny on another site & some are not too pleased with that.

Another way of seeing it is with the Lymans I have never needed a warranty cause it has always shot accurately & nothing has ever broken on it.

 

[Robert58]

I have a T/C Hawken that I bought about 4 months ago, in a Pawn Shop, for $100.00 out the door. It is an older model that doesn't have the counter bored muzzle. It will shoot a whole lot better than I can. Look around in the Pawn Shops before you buy a new rifle. I found mine at the sixth shop we stopped at. Also about two months ago I found a nice Lyman Plains Rifle (the model before the Great Plains) for $120 out the door.

Good luck,
Robert

 

[bulletman]

I am no expert by a loooong shot, I just started into BP about last july, I started with the GPR after extensive searching on the net and going to BP shoots talking to the older guys ( more experienced)...Also I just did a check on 2 gun auction sites and found every kind of BP rifle EXCEPT LYMAN, this tells me people will not sell them, the only gun I would not sell are the best ones I have, I figure most people are like that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

I'd have to go with the Lyman GPR. I used to own one but over several years of.....can I call it "upgrading"....I got an even more historically accurate Hawken. The TC is not historically accurate except that it loads from the muzzle. If my "better" rifle is any more accurate than my Lyman was I can't tell it. I've noticed that you don't see many used Lyman's around, at least not in my neck of the woods so I would concur that folks keep them. I prefer the 1-66 twist over the 1-48 but all I shoot is patched round ball. I just like the Lyman better.

Vic

 

[45man]

SW, I had one of the first TC Hawkin rifles years ago. If I remember they had Sharron barrels. It was extremely accurate and would cloverleaf maxi balls and round balls at 50 yds. The reason I sold it was because the darn thing never fit me. Never fit anyone far as I know. The stock shape and dimensions were weird. I built many of my own long rifles so I bought parts and made my own Hawkin.
I have built many Lyman kits for friends and every one would cut a 5 shot ragged hole. My friend is getting 3" groups at 100 yds offhand.
Another friend bought one of the new TC's against all advice. It will not shoot anything stuffed into it. I tried everything short of changing the barrel. I even glassed it. I never know if it will even hit paper at 50 yds. He sent it to the factory and they tightened the wedge. (I already did) Shot just as bad. He had the devil of a time getting a new barrel from them. I know he was on the phone with them at least 5 times. Their attitude sucked, but they finally changed out the barrel for him. It still is nothing more then a pretty jack handle. It would be more effective beating a deer to death then shooting at one. I even scuffed the bore with scotchbrite and soaked it with vinegar overnight. It improved it from 10" groups down to 8". It has to be the worst shooting gun I ever tried. We tried every ball size, patch thickness, lube and every bullet on the market.
Then I had a contender for IHMSA. It was accurate but would foul out with copper or lead depending on what I was shooting and accuracy would go away. It took a week to get the bore clean. Back then they didn't question anything and changed the barrel for me. The new one was worse. I lapped and polished to no avail. It would gather so much copper it looked like the rifling was gone. Talk about rough! I sold it too.
I spent a bundle on a new TC pistol sight and it was no good. TC told everyone to return them, they admitted they were flawed. But they would not return the money, we had to take merchandise in exchange.
As you can tell, I am not a fan of TC.

 

[Rocky Johnson]

Why did you exclude Traditions & CVA? Maybe the reason you see more T/C gun at the pawn shops and yard sales & flee markets is becouse they sold so many more of them.I am pondering a Lyman Kit in flint any pit falls here ? Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[RussB]

Rocky.....I see no pitfalls with a Lyman kit. "been there, done that" and found it very rewarding. I will also add there "some" CVA rifles that are downright accurate and well worth owning. Many years ago I also "upgraded" from a CVA kit to a high dollar, no shooter. I have often wished I had never sold that CVA. I let it go for $25, and today I would gladly pay $250 to have it back.
The old saying of "you get what you pay for" can sometimes be a misnomer in rifles. I wish I could look at a rifle and tell if it's shoots or not, unfortunately, it's a "used" rifle before I figue out it ain't worth a plug nickle.
"Shooting" and "Looking" are two different things. It all boils down to what you personally want. Like most, I want as much of both as I can get. Then again, I consider the Trade Rifle a beautiful rifle, the Kentucky Flintlock is extremely elegant, and perhaps the most elegant of all, while the TC Hawken is just plain "fancy". My choice of the above three would be the one that shot the best.
Like I first said, YOU make the decision. It's YOU that's gotta live with it. I can't comment on a Tradition as I've never owned, or shot one.
Russ

 

[swquiro]

First of all, many thanks for your responses. Admittedly, when I posted the question I knew there were no absolute answers, and that has certainly been the case. Sort of like, some prefer blonds and some prefer brunettes. Nonetheless, It gives me info on which to go. As RussB says, when the smoke clears, the choice is mine. I excluded CVA and Traditions because the few that I have handled didnt look like quality pieces, no walnut, for example. But I learned long ago that the pretty ladies were usually not the ones for reliability and performance. The ones just barely cute were the sure bets. Comparing rifles and ladies is like skating on thin ice, so I stop here (sorry, Aline). I have no intention of buying a new rifle as there are just too many used ones in decent shape available for , in some cases, a song. Am not a fan of 1 in 48 barrels although I did have a TC New Englander that shot well, but when I had a chance to work in Spain I sold it. When I came back I bought another, but it wasnt worth a tuppenny tootsie. Never could wring out better than a 5" group at 50yds, and besides I couldnt silent cock the dang thing - the coil spring produced a few extra noisy scrapes, so I unloaded it. The GPR with its slow twist sounds just what the doctor ordered, but nine pounds up and down these hills? Hmm! We'll see. Will keep you posted. Again, many thanks

 

[Donny]

Since you asked..If I was forced to live in the mts. and live off the land, my rifle would be a T/C. You said reliability and durability, they have it. I have a T/C Hawken from to 70's, shot much and no problems. Of course you see a lot of them for sale, because they sold thousands of them. I have read on some BBS some folks have problems with the Lyman trigger. I prefer the more correct Hawken look of the Lyman, 2 wedges and correct triggerguard etc. the T/C has the Dimmic type nose cap and triggerguard, Hawken made some thataway, but more along the small cal. rifle , not the big uns. I have had my butt beat by cheep CVA many times, so did guys with fancy custom guns. As far as thre trigger click, press the triger when cocking the hammer.

 

I hunted the Northern Rockies with an 11 lb. Sharps and didn't have any problem. My house in Wyoming was higher than the highest point in Virginia by some 700 ft. and we hunted a lot higher than the 5700+ of Virginias highest point. I also hunted western Virginia, around Covington, with a 10 lb. Mod 1886 Winchester and didn't have any problems and that was before I lived in Wyoming. Put that weight idea out of your head and get what you want. Besides, after humping to get over a rise for a shot a heavier rifle will be a heck of a lot steadier than a broom straw.

Vic

 

I own a lyman Trade Rifle,which I dont see mentioned very much,but Lyman told me that it is one of the first ones made and therefore has a 1/66 twist.IT must be 12 or 15 years old,or older,I shoot all the time at local matches with it,is very reliable and accurate,the price was right,and would recomend it unless you might want something that looks more p/c.

 

[RJR]

Indiana, the Lyman Trade Rifle has been around a whole lot longer than 10 or 15 years. They went out of production for almost that long. I have one that I made in 75 and they were around long before that, came out shortly after the TC hawken. I still have the original 28" 1 in 48 Sharron barrel (shot out), the original lock and original triggers; all have been changed to GM, L&R and Davis. This one shot great as an original and even better now.

 

[gordy]

Tough question! It would be next to impossible to prove witch rifle of this group is the most durible or the better peformer. Without actual intentional abuse,all will give good service and accy. with the right projectiles.If traditional appearence is a requirement,then the Lymans may have the edge.Also the Lymans give the choice of twist out of the box.The T/Cs are excellent guns well made with some strong[url] bbls.made[/url] here (USA).I know that Sharron furnished their bbls. at one time but they also used Green Moutain more recently.The Lymans are/was built by Investarms (italy) also very strong and well made.I have the T/C Renegade.54cal.,CVAHawkens.50cal.,CVAKentucky.45cal.My oldest Son has a T/C Hawkens.54cal.One Grandson has a Traditions Panther.50cal.another has the CVA Bobcat.50cal.All of thease have given good service.I also have the CVA 12ga. Trapper shotgun.And Ruger Old Army.45cal.revolver.Of all thease weapons the Ruger would be my choice for the best built,but I doubt that any will ever have to be stressed to it's limits.So We go back to what use You intend them for and what pleases "YourEye" and the money You can afford to spend.Good luck in Your quest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Gordy

 

[swquiro]

Sharps, you are absolutely right that a heavier rifle, up to a point, provides for a steadier aim. And if you are happy toting an eleven pound Sharps, I am happy for you. Personally, I opt for a lighter rifle.
Donny, I appreciate your comment about the way to silent cock a rifle. Hopefully, someone new to our sport read it and learned something. I thank you for them.

 

[rwsrgs]

I agree with you about Lyman. I recently got back into muzzleloading after a 35 year absence. I purchased a GPR and couldn't be happier with the accuracy with PRB's. I own a custom mountain rifle that was made a few years ago for a friend of mine and although very accurate,it isn't any more accurate than the GPR I purchased from Lyman.

 

[2172]

I have a T/C, a CVA, a Cabela's, and two Lymans..one a GPR, and the other the Deerstalker....The CVA is about 30 years old, and I've heard the quality was at its best then...even so, the others are all better quality. I wouldn't want to have to choose between the CVA, the Cabela's and the Lyman GPR, but if I did, it'd be the GPR. If I was worried about humping a gun over the mtns, and I am, I'd be the Deerstalker, and next season, that's what I'll be totin'..Hank

 

[Darryl]

I put together (can't say you really "build" a kit) a CVA mountain rifle and a TC Renegade kit. Also have a flint Lyman GP. The TC is outstanding. I still have a target with three shots (two holes touching, third an inch or so away) off hand at 25 yards. Only problem it isn't a ball gun and with .54 conicals it had a nasty recoil. The thing started off very accurate, then started to loosen up. One of my hunting partners just glued his barrel into the stock. I ended up selling my TC. CVA mountain rifle .50 is an old classic. Very nice gentle ball gun. My CVA's stock is all brass tacked up. The Lyman .50 is a heavy sturdy no nonsense ball rifle. Best choice? A TC in .50 or .45 with a slow twist barrel for patched ball.