Which Powder and How Much?

[Chiefs50]

I have a Lyman Trade Rifle in .50 Cal. I shoot a .490 ball with red-stripe,Wal-mart ticking over 70 grains of ffg. I use this for both target work and deer and most of my shooting is at ranges of 75 yards or less. All the published data I have seen recommends the use of ffg in rifles and yet many folks on this forum seem to prefer fffg. Most folks also seem to favor a much heavier load than mine for hunting. Since most of you are much more knowledgeable about muzzleloaders than I, could you tell me what the thinking behind using fffg over ffg is? Also, at ranges of 75 yards or less, is their any advantage in using heavier powder charges?

 

[ONEYEDIK]

i shoot a 50 cal lyman great plains rifle..1-32 twist barrel.......90 gr.2f goex...295 gr. power belt......deadly ...one hole at 50 yds......also have 1-60 twist barrel.....80 gr. 2f goex..490 rb. wonder prelubed patch....same as above... one hole at 50 yds

 

[Chiefs50]

I guess I neglected to say that the Trade Rifle is 1:48 twist and shoots PRB accurately.

 

[sparsons]

I shoot a .495 ball and walmart ticking in my .50 cal. Trad/shenandoah and t/c Hawken with a Green Mountain. I shoot 75 grains of fff. The common opinion seems to be you get more bang for your buck out of the fff. You of course need to adjust your load about 15-25% down from the ff recommendation. Every rifle seems to have its own likings when it comes to load, patch ect. If it is working now for you like they say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" :thumbsup:

 

[bwhoffman]

I like 2f and so does my .50, it eats 3f as well but with shooting a .40 and the handguns, they like 3f, so I opt to carry one powder.
The big plus for me in using 2f is that is has a lower pressure curve and gives more of a push as to a kick. after shooting competitive shotgun events for years, lower pressure is something I value. But 3f works well also. 6 oneway, half a dozen the other is my feeling to your question!

 

[Zonie]

Generally speaking, the 3Fg powder creates a little more velocity, more chamber pressure and a little less fouling. The first two are the reason many posts suggesting that you use 3Fg also mention the load should be reduced about 15-20% to keep the sighted in gun sighted in.

If your into 'numbers', the Lyman Black Powder Handbook says (under the .50 cal, 28 inch barrel data)the following:
Goex FFg, 70 grain load =1471 FPS muzzle velocity
Goex FFFg, 70 grain load = 1657 FPS muzzle velocity

As you know, a person doesn't need mega powder loads to hunt with but there are a lot of people who want to use the most powder they can burn to get the maximum velocity out of their guns when they are hunting.
I think this line of thinking comes from folks thinking about modern cartridge guns and the high velocities and energy numbers those guns have.

You large powder loaders, don't get me wrong. I will admit that the higher velocity creates a higher 'shock' to the game resulting in it often going down faster but I'm of the opinion that the larger loads often are not as accurate as the smaller loads, and shot placement is much more important than having a 'high shock load' hit in a non critical area.

zonie

 

[Joel Boyles]

I can't make any claims to being an expert, I've only been shooting M/Ls for a few months, but my Tennessee flinter "likes" 3Fg better than 2Fg. With ffg, ignition was slow, and accuracy was poor. When I switched to fffg, accuracy and ease of cleaning both improved. I started with 50 grs under a .490 PRB using the same patching material you're using, lubing with Stumpy's Moose Snot. Worked up slowly to 80 grs, and decided I wasn't going to get much better than that. The rifle/load combination will give one ragged hole at 25 yards, and will usually stay under 3 inches at 100 yards (from a bench, and if I do my part!)


Short answer: I use 3Fg because it works better.

Enjoy today,

Joel

 

[bucktales]

I switched to 3Fg in my T/C WMC in .54 a number of years back. I went from a 100gr. 2Fg hunting load down to 85gr. of 3Fg shooting big conicals.
My reasoning was that I figured with such a short barrel, I would get a more complete burn with the finer stuff . Seems to have worked with accuracy improving quite a bit.

 

[Chiefs50]

Thanks for the explanation. I see there are a number of practical reasons. Hmmmm - less fouling, more bang for the buck - I may have to consider 3fg myself.

Mike

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Powder charge is somewhat dependent on bore size and barrel length. Heavy charges of coarse powder produces more fouling than a lighter charge of finer powder. My .50 with 24" barrel I use an '06 caseful of 3F with PRB, works for me, much more and I get a lot of fire shooting out the muzzle. This is something for Paul V. to weigh in on, he has formula for grain size/bore/barrel length.

 

[spudnut]

Then you have real big bores,My bess likes 100 gr 2F to make that punkin ball level out :v

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Should have said that an '06 case holds 72 grs. 3F. :redface:

 

[nchawkeye]

Chief...I started shooting flinters in the mid 70s...Back then everyone told me "use FF in 50 and above and FFF in .45 and below"...I used FF in my .54 for years and FFF in my .45 and .40...Never really questioned it because all the experts and shoots I went to that's how it was...

It wasn't until this internet thing put us all together with other like minded (usually :rotf: )
folks that I realized what should have been obvious...I switched to FFF in my .54 and immediatley realized that the "chucks" of unburned powder that I was seeing with FF went away...Heck my .54 is 1 1/6 inch at the breach, its not likely to blow up with FFF vs FF...and its just easier keeping one powder around for diferent calibers and priming...

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu are shooting a percusion gun. These guns shoot more consistent velocities if the powder is compacted. When you pour the powder into the muzzle make sure that the barrel is pointing straight up, so that the powder drops freely to the bottom of the barrel. That give you a " 28 inch drop tube "! to compact your powder. The smaller FFFg powder compacts better than the larger FFg powder does. You gun may have a reduced sized powder chamber. If you use a damp claning patch on your jag to clean the barrel, it will not enter or clean that chamber. You will need a separate, small brush or swab to clean that chamber. Whatever your gun's make up, you have to be able to dry the moisture that collects in the powder residue on the face of the breechplug. Otherwise that moisture will foul the powder charge you next pour into the gun. Use a wire to make sure both the nipple and the flash channel is cleared each time you load the gun, by running the wire down the nipple and flash channel to the powder charge before capping. That will insure that the flash from your cap will reach the powder in the barrel.

If you take that gun out at night time, and just put a cap on it, and then fire the cap in the dark, you will see a long flame come out the muzzle. I don't think you have to worry about whether the cap is hot enough, regardless of brand. You do want to check to make sure that the face of the hammer is hitting the top of the nipple squarely. Use some paper toweling, fold it over the nipple with the gun empty and release the hammer. It should make either a punch out, or a donut shaped circle in the towel. If you get an arc, instead of a circle, you need to grind down the high spots on the hammer face. Put marking dye on the top edge of the nipple, then lower the hammer to mark the face, and you will mark only the high spots. Use a small grinding bit in a dremel type tool to grind away the high spots. Keep doing this test until you punch out a complete circle.

This will improve ignition, save the nipples, and keep you from developing a flinch.

Best wishes.

 

[Don B]

Paul,

Two questions. Regarding the powder chamber, are you recommending wiping the chamber when wiping between shots, or are you talking about cleaning the chamber while cleaning the barrel at the end of the day?

And how would any of your recommendations prevent developing a flinch?

Don B

 

[flintlockmdj]

It all comes down to what works best for you. FFFg shoots a little cleaner and gives a slightly higher velocity. FFg is not that much dirtier or slower than FFFg. Your 70 grain charge should be perfictly addiquate for deer out to 75 yards if you do your part with bullet placement. Some guns need more or less powder to give optimal accuracy, some hunters feel the need to use large loads to be sure of a kill.

One friend shoots a .50 cal Hawken 1 1/8" barrell 32 inches long with 110 grains of powder. Another friend uses a .50 T.C. Hawken with 50 grains but WILL NOT take a shot over 30 yards.

So as I said to start with it's what works best for you and your gun.

 

[Chiefs50]

paulvallandigham

I think your response got misplaced. It seems you are, in fact, replying to the "Misfire" post by Grits.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Don: It all depends on where you shoot, and what the humidity and temperature is. I find that in humid conditions, I have to wipe between every shot, or I will get either a hangfire, or misfire. I am not currently shooting a gun with a patent breech with the smaller chanber behind the barrel. Shoving gooey crud into those chambers between shots WILL cause misfires. I know men who shoot such rifles and they eventually have TWO range rods, one the bore diameter for cleaning and load the gun barrel, and the second set up with a 30 cal brush over which they place a cleaning patch to clean out that smaller chamber at the bottom of the barrel. They pump it a couple of times to make sure they either see smoke or hear air hissing out the nipple to insure that the flash channel is clear. They also tend to run a wire down the nipple and through the flashchannel after loading their powder to feel for powder in the chamber of the barrel. If they don't feel powder with their wire, they check their mark on the ramrod, and if it doesn't look right, they fire the load off into the ground at the range's safe area, and clean the gun again and reload.

In really cold westher, when the air is very dry, you can get condensation in the barrel from firing the first shot, even when the relative humidity is so low. If you take your time, and clean the moisture out of the barrel, it won't foul the charge. I tend to use a bore brush in sub freezing weather, to break the crud loose from the rifling, along with any ice crystals that might form in the barrel when it reaches air temperature again. Upend the rifle to pour the lumps out, and then clean with alcohol. The alcohol also dries the barrel as it evaporates. In the field, a bottle of alcohol can replace the second rod with the .30 cal. swab for cleaning the powder chamber. Pour a little alcohol down the barrel. Slosh it around turning the barrel up and back down several times, and then pour the alcohol out the muzzle. let the gun stand while the alcohol dries the barrel and evaporates. Then run a alcohol soaked patch down to remove the fouling and you are ready to load. Listen for air hissing out the nipple when you run that patch down the barrel, again. Alcohol fumes comeing out the nipple will also clean it, and the flash channel under the nipple.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You can calculate the maximum amount of Black powder you can burn in a given length of barrel of a specific caliber shooting the patched round ball, by this formula.

Pi( 3.1416) times the radius of the bore( R= 1/2 the diameter ) squared( multiply the radius times itself) time 11.5 grains, times the length of the barrel.

In a .50 cal barrel, that is 28 inches long, it looks like this:

3.1416 x .25 x .25 x 11.5 x 28= 63.23 grains.

Make that a 36 inch barrel, and the maximum amount of powder is :

3.1416 x .25 x .25 x 11.5 x 36= 81.29 grains.

A 42 inch barrel will fire about 90 grains.

This does not mean that you can't put more powder in the gun. It only means that more powder than that and the extra is burning outside the muzzle. With a chronograph, you can see this. The only benefit of putting more powder in the barrel than it can burn is to increase the total mass of the powder, which helps increase the pressure inside the barrel when the gun fires, and give a few FPS more velocity . However, the efficiency of the burning of the extra powder is off set by greater recoil, and you are spending more money for powder that is not delivering you proportionally as much power for the amount used.

If you will do your own penetration test, you wll find that penetration with any round ball is dependent mostly on the total weight of the lead ball, not velocity. The only reason to use more powder is to attempt to flatten out that ballistics curve in midrange, so that the ball does not strike as low at 100 yards, as it would if you used that lower weight powder charge designed for 50 yard target shooting. Usually, the groups size opens up when you use more powder for this purpose, so you have to make a judgment as to wether you want to concentrate on accurate placement, at the longer range, or be able to get the ball to strike an inch or two higher by using the heavier powder charge. I always ask the shooter, are you capable of holding that 2 inches you may save by using the heavier load, using your iron sights? And, How often have you ever seen a deer at 100 yards or further than you had a clear line-of-sight shot at? How you answer those questions should go a long way in helping you decide how much a change, if any, you make in your " hunting load ", compared to that target load you now use.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I use the '06 case for a hunting charge which I practice some with but target/plinking I use the 7.62 Russian Moisin-Nagant caseful of 3F which is 63 grs, pretty much in line with your formula.