Whitworth, Pedersoli and Navy Arms

[Kno-ie]

Looking for some information on the two modern built brands. I've seen advertisement on both brand names but I'm confused as to who the manufacture is. I've advertisement to the effect that both are made by Pedersoli. Is there a quality difference?. Last I heard Navy Arms was no longer in operation. Thanks

 

[Zonie]

From what I found, the Whitworth sold by Navy Arms was made by Gibbs Rifle Company in Italy owned by Navy Arms. They were the company that bought Parker-Hale's tooling after Parker-Hale stopped making the Enfield rifles reproductions.

I'm not sure who bought the PH tooling after Gibbs went out of business. I'm sure some of our members will know.

The last date I've seen for muzzleloaders being sold by Navy Arms was in a 2011 Dixie Gun Works catalog.

 

[52Bore]

Pedersoli made the Whitworth for Navy Arms in recent years.
After last year, its now Pedersoli only as Navy Arms is out if the ML industry.

 

[Kno-ie]

Dixie currently has a advertisement for the Whitworth made by Pedersoli, but stamped on the barrel Navy Arms with Parker Hale also stamped on the barrel, Thus some of my confusion. Zonie thanks for your quick reply

 

[Kno-ie]

Thanks 52bore that helps a lot. Now is there any quality difference or pretty much the same gun with different markings.

 

[TFoley]

I can't talk for Navy Arms, but Mr Minshall here, who is THE SME on Parker-Hale production, has told me the Parker-Hale made complete 'continuation' muzzleloading rifles and carbines at Golden Hillock Road, Birmingham, where I occasionally went to collect Whitworth barrels for a rifle builder here in Eastern England, up to around serial number 9000. After that, the inventory was sold off to Euro Arms, including enough Birmingham-made and proofed barrels to complete around 5000 more such arms, using such furniture parts as remained. After ~14000 there was nothing of Parker-Hale in the Euro arms product - it was all Italian.

The Pedersoli Whitworth is entirely Italian-made - opinions on are still wanting. Capandball likes it, as he shows it on his Youtub site, but AFAIK it has yet to make any impression among members of the MLAGB here in UK, who shoot their genuine Whitworth and Parker-Hale pastiche rifles out to 1200 yards with suitable tang sights. One poster here, Dungspreader, bought one and found it almost impossible to get it to shoot anywhere near the mark without making a very ungainly foresight arrangement.

Note that Pedersoli is a 100% in-house arms manufacturer whose products owe nothing to anybody else. Their top-of-the-line stuff, like the Bristlen-Morges Schutzen rifle, is priced accordingly.

 

[Kno-ie]

Thank you TFoley . I've followed both Dungspreader and Cap and Ball on their Youtube channels. I'm very aware of the Pedersoli tang and foresight combination that Dungspreader tried. Mine came with the volunteer I ordered from Dixie. Each part is on two different rifles and not the one it came with.

 

[52Bore]

Val F. told me they they were shipped to him and he used a traditional blue on the barrel and bone case color on the lock plate - neither methods Pedersoli can do, Pedersoli bbl is brown and lock case hardened a different way. Stefano P. also told me his country is much more strict on such finishings chemicals than ours (imagine that), their EPA, I assume.
Val sold the PH rights to Pedersoli last year.

 

[Kno-ie]

52bore and all who have responded, Thank you for your help.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Dixie currently has a advertisement for the Whitworth made by Pedersoli, but stamped on the barrel Navy Arms with Parker Hale also stamped on the barrel, Thus some of my confusion. Zonie thanks for your quick reply

Dixie is notorious for retaining photographic material that is way out of date. Some of the boys featured in some of the advertisements are nearing retirement age. I am speculating that the picture of the Parker-Hale Whitworth pictured in the catalog is representative in pattern to the rifle offered, but may not arrive exactly as pictured.

 

[TFoley]

Val F. told me they they were shipped to him and he used a traditional blue on the barrel and bone case color on the lock plate - neither methods Pedersoli can do, Pedersoli bbl is brown and lock case hardened a different way. Stefano P. also told me his country is much more strict on such finishings chemicals than ours (imagine that), their EPA, I assume. Val sold the PH rights to Pedersoli last year.

Val Forgett died on July 31st 2002. As for colour case hardening, Uberti seem to make a very good job on any of the guns, including my own, on which I have seen it.

 

[TFoley]

Thank you TFoley . I've followed both Dungspreader and Cap and Ball on their Youtube channels. I'm very aware of the Pedersoli tang and foresight combination that Dungspreader tried. Mine came with the volunteer I ordered from Dixie. Each part is on two different rifles and not the one it came with.

I find it odd that so many American shooters find difficulty lining up the sights on the P53 and its ilk. Dungspreader, while not American had similar difficulties, and yet over here, and elsewhere, we shoot similar rifles as issued, or in the case of the longer-range volunteer-style, with tang rear and globe front- where permitted in the competition rules.

 

[Kno-ie]

TFoley, I would tend to disagree with you that many American shooters have trouble lining up the sights on a P53 and its kind. They just haven't been taught the correct sighting picture for the P53 and it's kind. As far as rear tang sights and front globe this country has a multitude of competitions that require this combination and many, many are quite skilled. I shoot smooth bore flintlock and have done so for over 40 years. No rear or front sight, is it odd that someone would need sights to hit their target?

 

[52Bore]

Thanks 52bore that helps a lot. Now is there any quality difference or pretty much the same gun with different markings.

Val Forgett died on July 31st 2002. As for colour case hardening, Uberti seem to make a very good job on any of the guns, including my own, on which I have seen it.

Indeed - Val Sr passed nearly 2 decades ago.
Val Jr. goes by the same name - Val. I’ve never called him Jr. when I’ve spoken him, have only address him as Val.

I have no idea about Uberti - only passing along on the specific post at to my face to face conversation with Stefano Pedersoli and Val on why Navy Armed Whitworth vs Pedersoli Whitworth finishes differ as described above.

 

[TFoley]

TFoley, I would tend to disagree with you that many American shooters have trouble lining up the sights on a P53 and its kind. They just haven't been taught the correct sighting picture for the P53 and it's kind. As far as rear tang sights and front globe this country has a multitude of competitions that require this combination and many, many are quite skilled. I shoot smooth bore flintlock and have done so for over 40 years. No rear or front sight, is it odd that someone would need sights to hit their target?

I take the hit for writing what I did, but my comment is not based on fog, it's as a result of reading a lot of posts here over the last 18 years about how difficult shooters in the US find shooting the rather straighter stock British service rifle of the day.

 

[52Bore]

TFoley:
On minute you compare shooters from 2 different countries based on 18years of Internet knowledge. Yet minutes before you don’t know the difference between Val Forgett Sr. & Jr. of Navy Arms.
Guess if you don’t know the difference between Sr & Jr - then your comment of shooting from your internet knowledge is spot on.

 

[TFoley]

TFoley:
On minute you compare shooters from 2 different countries based on 18years of Internet knowledge. Yet minutes before you don’t know the difference between Val Forgett Sr. & Jr. of Navy Arms.
Guess if you don’t know the difference between Sr & Jr - then your comment of shooting from your internet knowledge is spot on.

I've never dealt with either Snr or Jnr Mr Forgett, and I live around four thousand miles away on a different continent, so I might be forgiven for not knowing that there are/were two of them with the same name. As for my internet knowledge, well, I use it as a means of communication and learning but not as a way of making snide remarks about people I've never met. My personal knowledge of shooting began in 1952 at age six, and has never let up since, but I'll admit that I came late to black powder and muzzleloaders, not having begun with them until around 1969 or so.

 

[Whitworth]

Dixie list two different Whitworth models. I checked all this out before buying. One has "Parker Hale" on the stock the other without. One is marked Navy Arms, the other Pedersoli, along with differing finishes. Checked Navy Arms' website and then called to buy one since they are close by and priced $200 below DGW. Was told they hadn't offered those rifles for years even though still listed on their website My, "ahem", "Parker Hale" Whitworth 35xxx purchased online in February has no "Euroarms" or "Black Powder Only" makings at all. Just "Parker Hale LTD Birmingham England" along with "Sir Joseph Whitworths Rifling .451" on the barrel. The stock is one piece walnut and stamped "Parker Hale", the trigger guard is marked "Made in Italy" and the Italian barrel proof is dated 1999. The blue isn't quite as nice as on my Parker-Hale 2 Band Enfield but still nice.
A Whitworth replica I saw a couple of thousand serial numbers later, 37xxx was plainly stamped "Euroarms" and marked "Black Powder Only" and appeared to be finished a little rougher.
Go figure, mine doesn't seem to be fish nor fowl according to all data. I'm happy with the "Mystery" rifle, it was like new and half the price of a new Pedersoli. My patio range is only 100 yards, long range is moot to me since I live in the woods I just wanted to shoot the legendary hex bullets.

 

[TFoley]

Dixie list two different Whitworth models. I checked all this out before buying. One has "Parker Hale" on the stock the other without. One is marked Navy Arms, the other Pedersoli, along with differing finishes. Checked Navy Arms' website and then called to buy one since they are close by and priced $200 below DGW. Was told they hadn't offered those rifles for years even though still listed on their website My, "ahem", "Parker Hale" Whitworth 35xxx purchased online in February has no "Euroarms" or "Black Powder Only" makings at all. Just "Parker Hale LTD Birmingham England" along with "Sir Joseph Whitworths Rifling .451" on the barrel. The stock is one piece walnut and stamped "Parker Hale", the trigger guard is marked "Made in Italy" and the Italian barrel proof is dated 1999. The blue isn't quite as nice as on my Parker-Hale 2 Band Enfield but still nice.
A Whitworth replica I saw a couple of thousand serial numbers later, 37xxx was plainly stamped "Euroarms" and marked "Black Powder Only" and appeared to be finished a little rougher.
Go figure, mine doesn't seem to be fish nor fowl according to all data. I'm happy with the "Mystery" rifle, it was like new and half the price of a new Pedersoli. My patio range is only 100 yards, long range is moot to me since I live in the woods I just wanted to shoot the legendary hex bullets.

Interesting stuff indeed. Did you removed the barrel from the stock in order to see the Italian proof marks/stamps? Looks like you have a Parker-Hale-made but non-British-proofed barrel that WAS proofed in Italy subsequently when it was made into a firing firearm by whoever did it - in accordance with the CIP regulations. The serial number alone is some 20,000 AFTER the last British-made and Birmingham-proofed 'genuine' Parker-Hale barrel. It should also have a stamp '95gr black powder' or similar - I misremember the exact wording to tell the truth. The Birmingham proof marks and the maximum load stamps would both be concealed under the wood on the left-hand side of the barrel near the breech, or slightly underneath.

 

[Kno-ie]

Well it looks like I'm going to settle my curiosity in a couple of days. I ordered one from Dixie marked as to their advertisement " Parker Hale " on the barrel along with " Navy Arms " behind the rear sight, Item# PR1370. Advertisement also states " Made by Pedersoli " I'll provide details if there is any interest as to what I received. As a final note, I have followed many of you over the years on the internet and have great respect for your writings and advise. Thank you to all that responded to my question