Whitworth Rifles Accuracy

[ozark57]

I've been reading ( with great intrest) the threads on rifled Muskets. I shoot a Lyman Zouave and can get 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards. I have read stories of Confederate sharpshooters making 800+ yard kills with the Whitworh.
I would love to buy a Whitworth repro and give this a try. Anyone able verify this reported accuracy?

 

[pchwcf50110]

they are very accurate rifles. i have a PH 1st generation rifle from 1980 and a Euro arms model of recent manufacture. i have changed the sights and either rifle can shoot better than i can hold. my best 3 shot group ever at 110 yards and with the first shot from a clean barrel and the next two over fouling it put them in 1.25". two were touching. i do alot of shooting with English style bullet rifles and Whitworths are my favorite.

 

[broadarrow]

Hi Ozark57, I, like 451whitworth have one of each type of Whitworth rifle, a Euroarms and a Parker-Hale and they are an amazing rifle, I have just put a whole heap of information to do with this subject on another board to help a fellow contributor out and if you would like me to post that information here for you I can as it covers getting started, accessories etc. I doubt you would be disappointed should you purchase one as they are a fun subject to research (Google books) and an excellent rifle to develop, Regards, Peter B.

 

[TFoley]

I too have a Parker-Hale Whitworth military match rifle, #888 from 1986. I fetched it from the P-H factory in Golden Hillock Road, Birmingham, with my own fair paws.

Until recently, I was shooting the Polisar swaged 605gr hexagonal bullet with good results - one target I kept has a ragged hole with five shots in it, and two more within an inch. The recommended load from Joe Polisar of Albuquerque NM was 80gr of FFG, a thin card wad and a paper patched bullet pushed down to 40 pounds pressure in a cleaned bore, and then cleaned the bore out again before firing. :thumbsup:

Now I have three such bullets remaining - in my collection - there will never be any more, Joe said, as their investment did not pay off, and they have since ceased production. It is entirely due to them and their generosity that got me shooting my P-H Whitworth successfully, when I was on the point of making it into a tomato stake in sheer frustration. Mr Corbin offered me a set of his wondrous hexagonal swaging dies, but I bought a new car instead. :hmm:

It also shoots quite well with 90gr of FFG under the Lyman 535gr cylindro-conoidal multi-groove bullet, as the kick up the ar&e from the explosion of the charge makes it hexagonal...

The Dyson mould, though pretty, is an expensive paper-weight, and although a Dutchman makes a complex three-part mould, he has not been heard of for a few years. A guy over in NY also made a similar mould for about $400 ten years ago...but I'm just too mean to pay that for a mould, however pretty it might look. BTW, DGW also sells proper hexagonal bullets and ready to roll patches.

The Whitworth rifle is is too common over here in UK to arouse much interest - indeed, many members of the MLAGB shoot originals. [sigh]

A similar type of WoNA-era sharpshooting arm, the Kerr rifle, is far less well-known, and in fact I have never seen one.

The OP is advised to find a REAL and completely made in Birmingham example, rather than any of the post-break-up versions, some of which may have a genuine P-H barrel, but more likely will not. There are lots of little tricks to improve the gun that don't take up much time or energy, but really work. Mr Minshall from the MLAGB has produced a very useful guide to improving the three-band Pattern 53 Enfield - apart from the hexagonal bored barrel and slightly improved trigger, all his advice is equally applicable to the Whitworth - an 'improved' three-bander in any case. It can be found in the archives here, if you know how to search.

tac
Whitworth #888

 

[TFoley]

Hi Ozark57, I, like 451whitworth have one of each type of Whitworth rifle, a Euroarms and a Parker-Hale and they are an amazing rifle, I have just put a whole heap of information to do with this subject on another board to help a fellow contributor out and if you would like me to post that information here for you I can as it covers getting started, accessories etc. I doubt you would be disappointed should you purchase one as they are a fun subject to research (Google books) and an excellent rifle to develop, Regards, Peter B.

Sir - you would be doing many of us a favour by posting your information HERE, on THIS site, where there are more than a few shooters interested in the Whitworth rifle, me included, as well as the other two posters on this thread.

Thanks in advance.

tac
Whitworth #888

 

[DanChamberlain]

Another option to the Whitworth would be the "Volunteer" from the same company. Externally,it is quite similar, but it has a .451 round bore and shoots exceptionally well from what I've read. Also, it can take 120 grain of black which makes it a dandy hunting musket as well.

Dan

 

[broadarrow]

Hi Ozark57, here http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/management.htm is the link to the information Tac was kindly pointing out it is equally applicable to any of the "Enfield/Volunteer" type rifles, we have used it on the musketoons right on up to Whitworths with excellent results, Regards, Peter B.

 

[broadarrow]

This is just a direct copy of the Parker-Hale factory instructions that accompanied the rifles originally and is something the Euroarms company does not provide. What it will give you if you follow the instructions closely is an excellent baseline load to work from that will give good results straight out of the box, well that is it did in my case when I tried them when I got a copy of the booklet about nine months into working with the rifles, Regards, Peter B.

LOADING AND MAINTENANCE INSTRUCTIONS


Parker-Hale Whitworth rifle is accompanied by the following accessories:



1 bullet mould calibre .451 for casting a 485grain bullet in 99.9% pure lead

1 bullet sizing die and punch

1 hexagonal wad cutter

1 nipple key

1 spare copper-berillium nipple

3 rear sight blades

2 phosphor bronze cleaning brushes

3 wool mops



BEFORE USING YOUR P-H WHITWORTH MUZZLE LOADER



Your rifle has been lightly greased for protection during storage and transit.

Wipe down the exterior with a cloth. Dry out the interior of the bore with a

cloth patch or mop-use the ramrod (retained by a spring-pull it straight

out) with a dry wool mop or wrap a cloth patch round one of the phosphor

bronze brushes provided.



Note: We recommend that you have a spare cleaning rod with Enfield type

implement thread (Parker-Hale27AL with ball bearing handle) as this

will speed your loading and cleaning procedures. Brass ramrod tips

for attachment to the 27AL rod are also available for loading if you

prefer to leave the rifle ramrod in place. This is recommended for

optimum accuracy-it helps maintain even tension of the barrel bands

and ensures that you get the best out of your rifle, which has been

carefully factory bedded for accuracy.



PREPARATION OF BULLETS AND WADS



Careful preparation of bullets will pay off in accuracy. Cast bullets from pure

lead and for best results, weigh them, discarding those which are light,

indicating a large air cavity.

Lubricate by dipping to the top of the cannelures in a mixture of 75% tallow

25% beeswax and leaving to set. The mixture should be melted over a low

heat in a flat dish. The mix may have to be adjusted according to ambient

temperature. On a hot day more beeswax will be needed to prevent the

lubricant melting prematurely.

After lubricating, size the bullets by passing them through the sizing die

provided. Press the bullet through, base first, with the top punch supplied

and take care not to deform the base in any way. The bullet will now be a

perfect fit in the bore, tight and lubricated in the cannelures.

To prepare the over-powder wads, soak an absorbent card of about 1/16"

thickness (such as a beer mat) in the hot bullet lubricant. When the lubricant

is set, cut wads with the hexagonal punch provided.



LOADING AND FIRING

(a) Fire two or three caps only to ensure the nipple channel is clear.

N.B. Never snap the hammer without either a percussion cap or snap

cap to protect the nipple.

(b) Load a carefully measured charge of powder, preferably weighed exactly.

We recommend a charge of between 60 and 90 grains of the largest grain

rifle powder available such as Fg. Fine grain powders are not

recommended for best results.

Note: Your P-H Whitworth rifle has a patent breech, an internal powder chamber.

of smaller diameter than the bore which speeds up the rate of burn

of the powder, increases breech pressure and bullet velocity. The rifle

will function best if the patent breech is clean and free from fouling,

so when carrying out the following loading procedure, take care not

to force the mop into the powder chamber, as this will cause the

powder to become damp and will push the fouling into the breech.

(c) After loading the powder charge, ram down a waxed wad.

(d) Attach a wool mop to a ramrod and dampen it slightly with water.

Lower the ramrod onto the waxed wad, and mark the rod 1/4" above the

point where it exits from the barrel. This is to ensure that when

swabbing out the mop is not lowered too far into the powder chamber,

the ramrod only being lowered as far as the mark just made.

(e) Insert the bullet carefully, base first, into the muzzle and lower it, with

the ramrod, onto the wad. Do not tap the bullet down as this may

damage it and upset its aerodynamic performance. Mark the ramrod at

the point where it exits from the muzzle and ensure that subsequently

each bullet is seated to this depth.

(f) Pull back the hammer to the half **** position and place a cap firmly

on the nipple.

(g) When ready to fire, pull back hammer to full ****. To protect the stock

during firing it is recommended that adhesive tape be applied to the area

immediately round the nipple. Otherwise the wood may be scorched by

the flash from the percussion cap.

(h) Fire two bullets to allow the barrel to become uniformly dirty and warm.

(i) Remember the order of loading after firing first shot:

1-swab out with damp wool mop

2-load powder (use long loading tube for best results)

3-waxed wad

4-bullet

(j) Experiment with the powder load until optimum accuracy is obtained

at the range desired.

(k) We have supplied a selection of different height backsight blades so that

you can zero your rifle at the range you most frequently use i.e. 100

metres without using the ladder sight.



Note: Small bore muzzle loaders with patent breech develop high breech

pressures and eventually the nipple will become eroded, the flash hole

enlarged and back pressure of gas may blow the hammer back to

half **** on firing. Check regularly the condition of your nipple and

fit a new one in good time.



WARNING:

If you forget to load a powder charge or if fouling has built up in the barrel

preventing you from seating the bullet against the powder charge DO NOT

ATTEMPT TO FIRE THE RIFLE. Firing a rifle with the bullet stuck part

way down the bore can seriously damage the barrel. Check the position of

the bullet in the barrel with the ramrod. If you have no combination tool for

extracting stuck bullets, and the bullet has been rammed down until it is

seated at the breech, remove the nipple with a nipple wrench and pour a

little fine grain black powder into the nipple channel. Replace the nipple

tightly, press on a percussion cap and fire, aiming at a safe backstop.

If the bullet remains in the barrel, unscrew the nipple once again, measure

a full charge of powder and trickle as much as possible of it into the breech

through the nipple channel. Ram the bullet down until it is seated firmly on

the powder, replace nipple, place a cap on the nipple and fire in the normal

way.



IMPORTANT: If for any reason you are unable to seat the bullet onto the

powder do not under any circumstances attempt to fire the rifle. Take it to

a gunsmith who will be able to remove the breech plug and drive out the

stuck bullet without damage to you or your rifle.



CLEANING INSTRUCTIONS

Depending upon weather conditions, type of lubricant used and other

factors, fouling may build up in the barrel until it becomes difficult

to seat the bullet on the powder charge. It is advisable therefore, from

time to time, to clean the barrel with a phosphor bronze brush followed

by the use of a wool mop. These implements are fitted on to the end of

the ramrod. After cleaning and before firing the next series, fire a cap or

two before loading more powder. Immediately after having finished

shooting it is necessary to clean the weapon thoroughly as Black

Powder residues are corrosive and will ruin the weapon if not removed

quickly.



The procedure to be followed is as follows:

a. Remove barrel bands and, with hammer lowered onto the nipple,

unscrew and remove tang screw or "breech nail". Thumb the

hammer back to half **** position and remove barrel from stock.

b. Unscrew nipple with nipple key.

c. Make a strong, hot solution by adding approximately I fl. oz. of

Young's Black Powder Solvent to a quart of nearly boiling water

and clean out the barrel by placing the breech into the solution.

d. With the ramrod fitted-first with the bronze brush and then with

the wool mop-pump the rod up and down the barrel to remove all

fouling, ensuring that, by suction, the barrel is filled by the solution.

e. Rinse out with a fresh mixture of Young's Black Powder Solvent

and nearly boiling clean water and leave to dry.

f. Lightly oil both inside and outside with neat Young's Black Powder

Solvent and refit to the stock.

g. Do not forget to clean the nipple before replacing it.

 

[rafterob]

Try to find a copy of the book "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" By Ned Roberts. my local library had it. It is a great book on the refinement of percussion target rifles in the 19th century.

 

[ozark57]

Tac, Do you( OR ANYONE ELSE OUT HERE) have any experiance shooting the Whitworth at ranges of 800 plus yards? I have a 1000 yard range and shoot my modern guns to the extreme.A muzzle loader capable of 800+ yard accuracy is more than a little interesting. I know the legend. I just want to know if it is plausable before I move to buy a rifle.My .58 rifled musket looses useful accuracy after 350 yards.

 

[dlimoges]

I own a Whitworth and I do not shoot it very often, but when I do I shoot I use a 45 cal lubricated maxie ball. With 55 grm of powder. I have a little problem with a cleaning jag and got the patch stuck.

 

[ResearchPress]

Tac, Do you( OR ANYONE ELSE OUT HERE) have any experiance shooting the Whitworth at ranges of 800 plus yards?

I have shot Whitworth rifles to 1000 yards.

The open sights on the rifle will need upgrading to aperture sights for best results. Sourcing bullets, particularly hexagonal, can be a cause for concern. Cyindrical bullets can be made to work well, the best results I have seen have been with one with a deep base cavity. Most Whitworth shooters I know use paper patched bullets.

See this thread: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/212346/

I have some pictures of bullets posted.

A hexagonal wad punch and jag will be useful in helping control fouling. A common loading practice is to load powder/wad - wipe bore with damp then dry patch - seat bullet.

If you are just seeking a muzzle loader for long range shooting and are not stuck on the Whitworth, then a good choice would be the Pedersoli Gibbs. These are modelled after the Gibbs-Metford long range match rifle and come with aperture sights as standard. They have half stock with pistol grip. I've used mine to 1200 yards.

PM me if you like and I can point you in the direction of other further information on the Whitworth and long range muzzle loading.

David

 

[TFoley]

I own a Whitworth and I do not shoot it very often, but when I do I shoot I use a 45 cal lubricated maxie ball. With 55 grm of powder. I have a little problem with a cleaning jag and got the patch stuck.

Sir, If your Whitworth has the orginal-style hexagonal rifling then you are wasting powder and lead by shooting it in this fashion.

The rifle was designed to stabilise a long hexagonal bullet weighing over 500gr in front of a minimum charge of around 80gr of FFg.

It will, as Mr Minshall will support, also shoot a pure lead cylindro-conoidal bullet of around 535-545gr - the explosion of the charge will' fire-form' it into a close-fitting hexagonal bullet. This was de rigeur during the WoNA when the Confederate sharpshooters eventually ran out of the proper swaged hex bullets.

tac

 

[F.G. Ford]

To all of you,GREAT INFORMATION!
Keep it up.
Old Ford

 

[dyemaker]

Looking around I sometimes see other rifles with Whitworth and Henry patent rifling. The Beasley military percussion target rifles and W. Richards breechloading monkeytail rifles are two with Whitworth rifling but there are others. Don't forget about the other Civil War sniper rifles. The underhammer target rifles without the hex rifling that evolved into the "slug guns" still used in modern muzzleloading competitions.

 

[TFoley]

Looking around I sometimes see other rifles with Whitworth and Henry patent rifling. The Beasley military percussion target rifles and W. Richards breechloading monkeytail rifles are two with Whitworth rifling but there are others. Don't forget about the other Civil War sniper rifles. The underhammer target rifles without the hex rifling that evolved into the "slug guns" still used in modern muzzleloading competitions.

Quite right, Sir. The Kerr and Tryon rifles are but two of the rifles used by sharpshooters, as they were called then - the term 'sniper' was not commonly used during the era of the WoNA.

The enormoulsy heavy [up to 50 pounds or so] Wesson rifle was the one most likely to have evolved into the present-day 'slug-gun', with its false muzzle and two-piece 'slug'.

tac

 

[dyemaker]

Issac Hollis & Son is another maker that comes to mind. They made three band muskets with Whitworth patent rifling. I don't know if these were "volunteer" rifles or not. I have seen pistols with Whitworth rifling as well including a monkeytail pistol.

 

[broadarrow]

Hi ozark57, to answer your original question yes Whitworth rifles are capable of the reported accuracy and when sorted they shoot consistently well often outperforming modern rifles at distance, my favourite party trick!

Now, as to, Tac, you said.....
Sir - you would be doing many of us a favour by posting your information HERE, on THIS site, where there are more than a few shooters interested in the Whitworth rifle, me included, as well as the other two posters on this thread.

Thanks in advance.

tac
Whitworth #888

So, here we go on bullet moulds etc., the opinions given hereafter are my own others may find different and or better results. I have been reliably informed most P-H Whitworth rifles were supplied with the Lyman 457121 mould, my rifle was supplied with a Lyman 457621 mould and the genuine P-H sizing die pictured below which are mentioned in the P-H instructions in the post above.

Also available for cylindrical projectiles is a two peice swaging die from Dixie Gun Works which will put some tiny flats on cylindrical projectiles to make them hexagonal of sorts at .447cal I have only played with this a little and went back to the full hexagonal projectiles as that is what I want to shoot.

The next available is the Peter Dyson & Son three peice mould, a little tricky to use but you will through careful management of temperature etc. get good serviceable projectiles from it which can be used paper patched or greased with good results. I have made a flat base plug for my mould as well as the supplied shallow cavity plug for paper patching which casts a projectile of around .436cal and from memory around 570grs. in weight.

Now here is the Leon Kranen mould, these are beautifully made by spark erosion and are easy to use and it will cast a very nice projectile which an endless amount of people will want for their collection. It casts at around .442cal and 530grs. in weight and with the 9lb. 25% rag cotton paper patching material sourced from Buffalo Arms wraps to a neat fit in my two Whitworth rifles at .448cal, I have not yet managed to get the accuracy of what I use as my standard benchmark load from the P-H instructions posted above but I am getting there slowly with this projectile as I have just aquired the mould and the patching material, Leon only does a production run of these as his work schedule permits as I understand it, and he says he may not do them again as he has changed jobs and says he doesn't have access to the machinery anymore.

Now I have included this photo below of a group of projectiles that have been used in Whitworth rifles by people I know they are from left to right, an L.E. Maguire mould original projectile, same mould modified (shorter) with paper patching applied, a paper patched cylindrical from an unknown mould same source as the previous two, Dixie Gun Works version of a hexagonal projectile which did not fit either of my rifles, and one from the Peter Dyson & Son mould, and, the Leon Kranen projectile as I call it.

Now, I hope this covers some of what gets used in these rifles in the way of projectiles,swages and moulds, but, the one thing about this subject I have to say is people repeatedly tell me that one product or another isn't any good and all I can say to them is that when a manufacturer puts their hand in their pocket to tool up and provide accessories for our pastime we should learn how to use their product properly before giving up and rubbishing it when there is little or no choice available, Regards, Peter B.

 

[dyemaker]

I think this should verify it's accuracy. From The modern sportsman's gun and rifle by John Henry Walsh

Link

 

[emptyquiver]

I picked up both Parker-Hale's thirty years ago,the Whitworth is still in the box. The Volunteer, Ive shot off and on for a while using the the P-H mold and sizing die that came with it. I use 90 grains of 2F. I have never had the opportunity to shoot it beyond three hundred yards. Off the bench using the open sights it has shot 3-4inch 3 shot groups, at that range. Ive also have hunted with it and have taken a couple of deer with it over the years.