Who made this Hawken?

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Good afternoon everyone. I found a nice looking Hawken on an online auction with a " S HAWKEN" Lockplate (Cherry Corners?) and "S HAWKEN ST LOUIS" stamped on the top flat ahead of the breech. The only other identifying marking is "R38A". Supposedly .56. I am hoping that when it arrives there will be more info under the barrel (GRRW?). I looked online and found that it was on an online auction in 2017 also. Any ideas about the maker or history of this piece? Thanks for any help!
 

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There are “Hawkens”, like the GGRWs, custom made guns and maybe the Pedersoli-made rifles.

Then, there are “hawkins” such as the CVAs, Traditions, Lymans, etc. that really don’t have much in common with how the originals were built.

I’m just not sure about yours from the pics.
 
I take it there was no other information supplied by the auction house?

If it is a Cherry Corners lock, that dates it to the early 1970's. That's when the Cherry Corners locks were considered the most correct of the then production locks.

What are the barrel measurements across the flats at the breech and at the muzzle?
 
I take it there was no other information supplied by the auction house?

If it is a Cherry Corners lock, that dates it to the early 1970's. That's when the Cherry Corners locks were considered the most correct of the then production locks.

What are the barrel measurements across the flats at the breech and at the muzzle?
Here is the complete description, I am hoping that there is more info under the barrel.


SERIAL NUMBER R38A BARREL 35-1/2" CALIBE .56 RIFLED. MANUFACTURE CONTEMPORARY built in style of Samuel Hawken of St Louis. Heavy full octagon barrel 1-1/8 across flats with blade front sight and Rocky Mountain pattern rear sight. Half stock of tiger maple with iron furniture and double set triggers. Metal is finished in a rich brown finish with hand rubbed oil finish on stocks. Top barrel flat is marked " S HAWKEN ST. LOUIS" barrel retained with two wedges and percussion ignition. Hickory ram rod with brass ferrule. Very fine condition and appears unfired but probably just displayed and admired. A great big game percussion rifle of very fine quality.
 
Appears to be a custom rifle made with Cherry Corners lock and Cherry Corners breech & tang. In fact, it could be essentially a Cherry Corners kit since they ultimately sold everything needed to make a rifle. Here are some more pictures from the auction site.

89646830_1_x.jpg

89646830_6_x.jpg

89646830_10_x.jpg

89646830_12_x.jpg


The pewter nose caps were popular in the 1970's and 80's.

Unless the builder signed his name on the hidden flats of the barrel, really no way to tell who made it.

Nice looking rifle. I like these vintage Hawken rifles. Congratulations on your auction win.
 
Plmeek, if the top flat is marked as stated, the only outfit that I can think of to have that inscription would have been Art Ressel's Hawken Shop, which closed in the early '80's. You would know the dates for his shop's opening and closing. I can't think of any other custom gunmaker that would stamp that on the barrel; it wouldn't be the right thing to do. This is assuming all the parts were built together at the same time.

As you know, an unsigned contemporary rifle or smoothbore is usually the builder's first gun made for himself. If he were to hang his shingle out to build rifles to order, he'd either have a set of metal stamps or be learning to engrave. His rifle-work will always be his "business card" in the public eye.

Bob Lienemann told me that if the customer supplied the parts, then the maker usually stamped or engraved his name or initials on the bottom flat, hidden by the forearm.

I'm curious to see what's on the bottom flat.
 
Appears to be a custom rifle made with Cherry Corners lock and Cherry Corners breech & tang. In fact, it could be essentially a Cherry Corners kit since they ultimately sold everything needed to make a rifle. Here are some more pictures from the auction site.

89646830_1_x.jpg

89646830_6_x.jpg

89646830_10_x.jpg

89646830_12_x.jpg


The pewter nose caps were popular in the 1970's and 80's.

Unless the builder signed his name on the hidden flats of the barrel, really no way to tell who made it.

Nice looking rifle. I like these vintage Hawken rifles. Congratulations on your auction win.
Thanks for your thoughts and the congrats. The .56 should be interesting, i'll post a range report after I get it out.
 
Plmeek, if the top flat is marked as stated, the only outfit that I can think of to have that inscription would have been Art Ressel's Hawken Shop, which closed in the early '80's. You would know the dates for his shop's opening and closing. I can't think of any other custom gunmaker that would stamp that on the barrel; it wouldn't be the right thing to do. This is assuming all the parts were built together at the same time.

As you know, an unsigned contemporary rifle or smoothbore is usually the builder's first gun made for himself. If he were to hang his shingle out to build rifles to order, he'd either have a set of metal stamps or be learning to engrave. His rifle-work will always be his "business card" in the public eye.

Bob Lienemann told me that if the customer supplied the parts, then the maker usually stamped or engraved his name or initials on the bottom flat, hidden by the forearm.

I'm curious to see what's on the bottom flat.
I was wondering if the R38A could have been for Ressel. As soon as I get the barrel off I will let you know I find. Thanks everyone for your thoughts!
 
abnben,

When you get it, you can also check with the current Hawken Shop up in Oak Harbor in Washington State, that took over the operation when Art sold them the business assets. They might have the records from the '70's & early '80's. This a neat mystery!
I will check with them and post whatever I can find out. Thanks again!
 
Plmeek, if the top flat is marked as stated, the only outfit that I can think of to have that inscription would have been Art Ressel's Hawken Shop, which closed in the early '80's... I can't think of any other custom gunmaker that would stamp that on the barrel; it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

There were and still are several "S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS" stamps floating around. Some of them apparently came from the Hawken/Gemmer business and some were made up in the 20th century. Doc White still has a stamp that GRRW used to stamp the MHS Jim Bridger Commemorative Hawken rifles.

The font of the stamp on the subject rifle is a little large and is sans-serif where the original Hawken stamps (and the better copies) were serif. I notice the marking on the lock is sans-serif and may be engraved rather than stamped.

As you know, an unsigned contemporary rifle or smoothbore is usually the builder's first gun made for himself. If he were to hang his shingle out to build rifles to order, he'd either have a set of metal stamps or be learning to engrave. His rifle-work will always be his "business card" in the public eye.

I agree that professional builders would sign their work as a form of advertising or as a "business card" as you say. But a lot of hobbyists, even the really skilled ones, as well as some of the semi-professional builders did not sign their name. Part of the reason was the case the IRS filed against John Bivins and a few others scared a lot of gun builders back then. Some of them quit signing their rifles so the IRS couldn't come after them. Then there were some builders that just didn't feel a need to sign their work.

I was wondering if the R38A could have been for Ressel.

That's hard to tell. Art Ressel would pay some professional builders such as Keith Neubauer, Doug Scott, and Joe Corley to build rifles with his parts set and sell them in his shop. I don't know that Ressel had them marked in any particular way. I have one that has documentation showing it was bought in Art's shop, but there are no markings on the rifle. Based on the finishes on it, I attribute it to Keith Neubauer. I've seen others that Doug Scott made which he signed. The rifle you bought at the auction doesn't have any parts from The Hawken Shop on it, so I don't think it had anything to do with Art Ressel.

It is possible that the "R38A" mark was made by the gun maker, but I don't have a clue as to who it might be or what the mark really stands for.

There were a lot of people building Hawken rifles back in the 1970's and 80's. Some advertised, but most relied on word-of-mouth or only made rifles for themselves and friends.

There's a bunch more of these vintage Hawken rifles that are still in gun safes or closets and will be showing up in auctions, estate sales, pawn shops, etc. in the coming years.
 
I would be happy with a .54, it started to sound like the previous owner and auctioneer didn't know much about it. I was kinda looking forward to following in the footsteps of the "liver eater" himself though!
 
.56 caliber means to me that someone stuck a bore gauge in the muzzle and read it. The muzzle is most likely relieved and the real caliber is probably .54.
I agree with Herb. Another possibility might be someone unfamiliar with muzzleloaders used a bore gauge and measured from bottom of groove to bottom of groove rather than land to land, the way they measure bores for cartridge rifles.

Interestingly, both the Carson-Beale Hawken (marked S. Hawken) and the Sublette-Beale Hawken (marked J & S. Hawken) were documented as .56 caliber, like Liver Eating Johnson's S. Hawken rifle. These original Hawkens may have been inaccurately measured as Herb described, or they could have actually been .56 caliber, as I I don't think the old timers were necessarily bound to the levels of standardization that we see now. I don't know. Regardless, I think it would be very unusual to find a modern made rifle in that bore size.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
I am inclined to agree. I found where this Hawken had been listed in an auction in 2017 with a very similar write up, to include .56 caliber. I think the new owner possibly knew very little about it and just gave the old info to the new auctioneer. UNLESS there is more info on the barrel that we don't know about (yet). Two more days!
 
I measured the bore of Liver Eating Johnson's Hawken at the Cody Firearms Museum in December, 2018. The museum technician had the brass tapered bore gauge at hand. I used bore gauges I made that screwed onto the end of a ramrod, hand filed to exact sizes. The muzzle was about .583 but the interior bore was .537. I measured a twist rate of one inch in 50.8 inches, which probably really is one in 48 inches. The bore was in good condition.
 

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