Who made this Hawken?

[abnben]

That must have been quite the experience getting to handle that historic firearm. Thanks for sharing this information.

 

[jimairwin]

Plmeek, if the top flat is marked as stated, the only outfit that I can think of to have that inscription would have been Art Ressel's Hawken Shop, which closed in the early '80's. You would know the dates for his shop's opening and closing. I can't think of any other custom gunmaker that would stamp that on the barrel; it wouldn't be the right thing to do. This is assuming all the parts were built together at the same time.

As you know, an unsigned contemporary rifle or smoothbore is usually the builder's first gun made for himself. If he were to hang his shingle out to build rifles to order, he'd either have a set of metal stamps or be learning to engrave. His rifle-work will always be his "business card" in the public eye.

Bob Lienemann told me that if the customer supplied the parts, then the maker usually stamped or engraved his name or initials on the bottom flat, hidden by the forearm.

I'm curious to see what's on the bottom flat.

One used to be able to buy stamps (supposedly authentic) to "forge" the Hawken name. I have an early Hawken shop Hawken I made in early 80s using the kit of parts from Ressel's shop. 100% authentic, or so it was claimed, (and I find no reason to doubt this). However the stamped name was not available from him/them.

 

[jimairwin]

Good afternoon everyone. I found a nice looking Hawken on an online auction with a " S HAWKEN" Lockplate (Cherry Corners?) and "S HAWKEN ST LOUIS" stamped on the top flat ahead of the breech. The only other identifying marking is "R38A". Supposedly .56. I am hoping that when it arrives there will be more info under the barrel (GRRW?). I looked online and found that it was on an online auction in 2017 also. Any ideas about the maker or history of this piece? Thanks for any help!

I built my first Hawken from parts I bought at The Longrifle Shop in Richardson, Texas, in 1974. It was the Cherry Corners kit of parts with. GR Douglas 54 cal barrel and walnut stock. Won lots of matches with it over many years. Anyway, if I remember correctly, there should be a pair of cherries stamped inside the lock plate.
FWIW, Cherry corners sold out to Ithaca who later sold to Navy Arms, who had the guns made by Uberti, who sold them thru Great Western Arms for some time. This same design is still being sold by Uberti. I've had a few of the Uberti's and they are still the same as far as I could tell.
As someone already wrote, this was a close copy of the Kit Carson Hawken. With my parts kit, I received a detailed handbook for how to build it, and a full size blueprint of the Carson Hawken. Carson was a smaller man, so this is a bit lighter than typical Hawkens.
FWIW, I built my later Hawken using the kit from Art Ressel's Hawken Shop in St Louis as copied from the Jim Bridger Hawken. He was a large man, and this gun is a bit larger/heavier, and 100% authentic. Maple stock, tapered octagon Bill Large barrel in 54 cal, iron nose cap.
Still have both, and they are treasured family heirlooms.

 

[abnben]

One used to be able to buy stamps (supposedly authentic) to "forge" the Hawken name. I have an early Hawken shop Hawken I made in early 80s using the kit of parts from Ressel's shop. 100% authentic, or so it was claimed, (and I find no reason to doubt this). However the stamped name was not available from him/them.

I have seen the "Cherry Corners" locks online and they look just like this, but I have never seen a barrel stamped like this. I had read that the old Hawken Shop had bought the original stamps but other than that I have no idea.

 

[abnben]

UPDATE: Rifle arrived tonight. Have some light rust/ pitting on the barrel, was a little tough getting the barrel off. Hammer doesn't always catch at half cock but the trigger is nice. Wood is very nice. The number R38A is on the barrel and trigger Guard but nowhere else. NO OTHER INFO ANYWHERE! Haven't taken the lock off, but not tonight. HEAVY, barrel is 8.8 lbs. So it was sold as a .56 but I suspect .54. Can I just try a patched .54? Anyway, I am running out of ideas to identify it further. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Griz44Mag]

UPDATE: Rifle arrived tonight. Have some light rust/ pitting on the barrel, was a little tough getting the barrel off. Hammer doesn't always catch at half cock but the trigger is nice. Wood is very nice. The number R38A is on the barrel and trigger Guard but nowhere else. NO OTHER INFO ANYWHERE! Haven't taken the lock off, but not tonight. HEAVY, barrel is 8.8 lbs. So it was sold as a .56 but I suspect .54. Can I just try a patched .54? Anyway, I am running out of ideas to identify it further. Thanks again everyone!

If you will finish your profile so we can see what part of the country you are in there may be a member close enough to you to help. Just having an experienced shooting partner when you start is a huge plus.....

 

[Grenadier1758]

How many lands and grooves?

Do you have a Vernier or digital caliper to measure inside diameters?

What is the measurement of the barrel across the flats at the breech? At the muzzle?

I think you can try a 0.530" ball and 0.015" thick patch. Use a simple patch lubricant. Spit would work and so would cooking oil or dish washing soap.

 

[abnben]

If you will finish your profile so we can see what part of the country you are in there may be a member close enough to you to help. Just having an experienced shooting partner when you start is a huge plus.....

Good morning, thanks for the support. I think that I am ok with my shooting, I am just trying to figure out a particular rifle.

 

[abnben]

How many lands and grooves?

Do you have a Vernier or digital caliper to measure inside diameters?

What is the measurement of the barrel across the flats at the breech? At the muzzle?

I think you can try a 0.530" ball and 0.015" thick patch. Use a simple patch lubricant. Spit would work and so would cooking oil or dish washing soap.

Good morning, I don't have a caliper but I am thinking that the internal dimensions of the barrel may not match the dimensions at the muzzle anyway. I think that your .530 with a .015 patch may be the way to start. I should be able to tell the fit when I seat the charge. I will get better details for you when I get home tonight. Thanks!

 

[abnben]

R38A is on different parts and no other information.. Early kit gun?

 

[Grenadier1758]

It would have to be a very early kit gun. Most kit guns would not have a manufacturing serial number keeping parts together as there would likely only be one gun in the production line.

Back in those dim dark days of old, I found a 1 1/8" (45 caliber) barrel in a gun store. No markings and unthreaded at the breech. Since I had determined that my T/C Hawken, firing Maxi-Balls was kicking too hard. The bruises lasted more than a week. I needed something that didn't kick as much. I gathered all the parts to make a "Sam" Hawken rifle. So I have a very good shooting, accurate on target rifle made in the mid 1970's. No markings. Some time after that I found an entry in a Dixie Gun Works catalog for a Numrich Arms barrel that was identical to the barrel on my rifle. I suspect that I have a Numrich barrel. This was before I met Art Ressel.

You may want to call Trail Creek Trade Company in St. Ann, MO (314)-739-0399. The proprietor, Greg, worked for Art Ressel and he may have some insight.

 

[abnben]

Thanks for the tip. I will call Greg today and let you know what I find out

 

[Cowboy]

I measured the bore of Liver Eating Johnson's Hawken at the Cody Firearms Museum in December, 2018. The museum technician had the brass tapered bore gauge at hand. I used bore gauges I made that screwed onto the end of a ramrod, hand filed to exact sizes. The muzzle was about .583 but the interior bore was .537. I measured a twist rate of one inch in 50.8 inches, which probably really is one in 48 inches. The bore was in good condition.

Here’s J. Johnson’s Hawken that Herb was referring to. Took these pictures last year when I was back home.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[TFoley]

I built my first Hawken from parts I bought at The Longrifle Shop in Richardson, Texas, in 1974. It was the Cherry Corners kit of parts with. GR Douglas 54 cal barrel and walnut stock. Won lots of matches with it over many years. Anyway, if I remember correctly, there should be a pair of cherries stamped inside the lock plate.
FWIW, Cherry corners sold out to Ithaca who later sold to Navy Arms, who had the guns made by Uberti, who sold them thru Great Western Arms for some time. This same design is still being sold by Uberti. I've had a few of the Uberti's and they are still the same as far as I could tell.
As someone already wrote, this was a close copy of the Kit Carson Hawken. With my parts kit, I received a detailed handbook for how to build it, and a full size blueprint of the Carson Hawken. Carson was a smaller man, so this is a bit lighter than typical Hawkens.
FWIW, I built my later Hawken using the kit from Art Ressel's Hawken Shop in St Louis as copied from the Jim Bridger Hawken. He was a large man, and this gun is a bit larger/heavier, and 100% authentic. Maple stock, tapered octagon Bill Large barrel in 54 cal, iron nose cap.
Still have both, and they are treasured family heirlooms.

Pics would be great. TIA.

 

[Rifleman1776]

There were and still are several "S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS" stamps floating around. Some of them apparently came from the Hawken/Gemmer business

True. Several stamps were sold at an auction. I know of one located in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. It is the one with a crooked 'S'.

 

[Cowboy]

There were a total of 13 Hawken rifles on display at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center . ( Museum)

Caliber’s varied. Barrel lengths and rifle weights varied as well.

1. Jeremiah Johnson Hawken, barrel length is 31 1/4”, .56 caliber.
Weight is 13 lb, 4oz.

2. S. Hawken , barrel length is 30”, 43 caliber, 7 lb, 8oz.

3. S. Hawken, barrel length is 32.5”, .50 caliber. Weight is 8 lb, 6oz.

4. S. Hawken, barrel length is 35.5”, 60 or 61 caliber?, No weight given in description?

5. S. Hawken, barrel length is 37.8”, .54 caliber, weight is 9 lb, 6oz.

6. J&S Hawken, barrel length is 36”. Is. .54 caliber. Weight is 10 lb, 1oz.

7. J&S Hawken, barrel length is 33”, 56 caliber, weight is 9 lb.

Can list to 13 total. All varied in caliber all though some were the same. Various barrel lengths and total rifle weight’s.

Only thing that they had in common were 7 lands and grooves with 1:48 twist.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[abnben]

Here’s J. Johnson’s Hawken that Herb was referring to. Took these pictures last year when I was back home.

Respectfully, Cowboy


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Cowboy, these are great, thank you for sharing!

 

[Cowboy]

Some of the Hawken rifle’s on display at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[toot]

great pictures.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Pistol grip Hawkens?