Whole Patches & Shredded Patches

[longcruise]

When you no longer feel a need to cover the powder with a patch it will be problem solved. Meanwhile, that doesn't address the solution.

I have a couple suggestions for your consideration.

First,

Here is another subsequent patch found:

This patch has me thinking of a problem i had once. I had patches like that and concluded that I was punching the ball through the patch with the short starter. In my case, I was using an oversize starter and the patch was binding to the bore. between the starter and the bore. So patch was immovable and the ball was tearing through the bottom of the patch. I think that could also be happening if the crown is holding the patch when starting.

I know you touched up the crown but it may not have been enough. It can be worked until there is no vestige of the edges at the transitions of the angles left by the factory. The first 1/8 inch or so of the lands should also be showing as continuous to the crown surface.

The last thing is to consider firelapping. The main concern with doing this is that you can do damage using grits that are not specific for firelapping. Valve grinding compound is a barrel wrecker when used to firelap. The best compound that I've found is from Veral Smith at LBT (lead bullet technology).

 

[hanshi]

CUT patches normally happen at the muzzle where the entry into the rifling/lands is abrupt and sharp. Sandpaper and a thumb will help that, along with using a heavy enough patch.

 

[Christophero]

Here's what I tried since reading all the suggestions:

*Holding the patch material up to the light, no pin holes show through.

*Starting a ball down the bore with a 50 caliber starter to prevent binding the patch to the side of the barrel, no cuts or tears appeared on the oversized cloth after slowly wiggling the ball and patch back out. As mentioned in the original post, I had Scotchbrited the bore and thumbed the crown a while back. That may not mean I smoothed all the land edges completely down the barrel enough, but at least the crown is smooth and didn't cut the unlubed patch during this test conducted multiple times.

Yes, Longcruise, I am hesitant to use 220 grit valve lapping compound to firelap the bore. Lead Slug Hand lapping is one thing but shooting that size grit out is another. Thanks for confirming my suspicions on this.

I agree 100% that an over the powder wad is a crutch for the ranges I plan to shoot and hunt. None of my other rifles need one to shoot accurately with unfrazzled patches. I did this on the suggestion of others as a way to test the results in hopes it would show that the powder alone isn't burning holes in the patches. Cannot say this last range session proved definitively one way or another.

As for the nipple, that is a Brand New Track of the Wolf Nipple only installed a month or so ago. I believe it is not worn out just yet. Big orifice, though.

Next outing I'll cut the powder charge back to 80 grains FFg to see the results. Plus, I'll lube in Olive Oil lightly. Will try to look up other lube combinations, too. Didn't mean to insinuate the 'Witches Brew" patch lube is wrong, just that I hoped to avoid gathering up multiple ingredients for the recipe. Done that enough for CF Cast boolits and and getting weary of all the various mixes. If only BLL would work on BP, lol. Oh well, what's one more?

Thanks Gents. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Christophero, the entry opening is not the opening of concern. That large opening allows the flame from the exploding cap to start down the flash channel. It is the opening at the base of the nipple that is the one to pay some attention to. You want the opening at the base of the nipple to be about 0.024 to 0.034" in diameter. That restriction causes the gas to speed up to create a jet of hot gas to ignite the main charge.

 

[Bad Karma]

Bad, that is a puzzling response. The hot shot nipple was designed by Dan Pawlak, the inventor of Pyrodex. Dan was a genuine rocket propellant scientist. Very smart guy. He learned many shooters were having difficulty getting ignition with Pyrodex. So he designed the hot shot using rocket propellent principals. I was in on that early testing and found the hot shot to give far more reliable ignition with all powders than other brands on the market. IMHO, Ampco is good but Hot Shot brand is far superior.

Well, the problem I have with the hot shot is that orifice… he designed the nipple using a larger orifice expressly for Pyrodex with its higher ignition temperatures. It’s fine I guess but I’m beginning to suspect that accuracy starts to fall off when the nipple flash hole erodes over .034” or so. Maybe even earlier than that if I shot well enough to discover it. Ampco nipples are right at .028 from the box, and maybe they wouldn’t work as well with synthetic powders although I have successfully used 777 and Pyrodex P in .40 and .45 caliber rifles with Ampco nipples and careful loading techniques. I use platinum lined nipples in a few rifles and they measure .026” in the package. Again, just the ticket for blackpowder.

 

[harleynut]

So i experienced same issue i was told by an old timer that has taken me under his wing that the center burn was either not enough lube and or the lube not being equivalent enough. I switched to what he recommended and problem solved !I now use TC #13 plus bore cleaner

 

[longcruise]

Just FWIW, I Have loaded dry patched loads into well conditioned barrels with absolutely no lube. The patch material didn't burn. Patches were intact. Not recommending as a practice though. Not easy to load and no lube to help soften the fouling.

 

[Christophero]

Range Report follow up with Olive Oil as the patch lube:
Shot number 1 was a bit to the right, thought that could have been me as I was only using cross sticks as a rest, not bags or tripod stand for the prone work I've been doing lately. No Over Powder Wad was employed for today's test. The patch for shot number 1 could not be found to evaluate. The next 5 patches were found and numbered in the picture below:

I think I was in a hurry lubing and applied much too little of the oil on patch #4, as it was blackened and shredded quite extensively. That ball hit 4" below the target page. No wonder I was having such erratic groups when nearly all the patches were shredding. But the other 4 found were in perfect condition, looking much like patch #6. Only the slightest of tears on that 100% Canvas patch. None of the other intact patches show any tears at all.

This material was found at the local Walmart. Thicker than the ticking bought prior. Its thickness takes more effort to ram the ball home. I intentionally did not swab the bore between shots 5 and 6 to see how it would slide down. Well enough for hunting use with follow up shots to be loaded.

The target results for the day:

OK, those who say T/C Bore Butter is not adequate for PRB's..... I am happy to season the crow I will eat with salt and pepper - You Were Right! The Olive Oil seems to be doing the trick with this rifle and 90 grains of FFg. Still using the Hornady .530" balls. I did pick up a box of .535" balls last weekend. Will test those sometime in the future. For now, though, this is showing much more promise than I've seen up to this point.

 

[Tasbay]

I pre cut my patches and place them in a jar then pour in some olive oil and let it soak. That way all patches are lubed equally. Usually cut around 100 at a time.
Patches look good but could be a tad bigger.

 

[doubleset]

I pre cut my patches and place them in a jar then pour in some olive oil and let it soak. That way all patches are lubed equally. Usually cut around 100 at a time.
Patches look good but could be a tad bigger.

I do that as well. My sister put me onto an Olfa rotary fabric cutter that I use to cut a patch strip in a couple of seconds: whoosh! Then I use it to just cut square patches off the strip by eye. Takes almost no time at all. I soak them in olive oil and then squeeze out any drippy excess. Done. Works like a charm. I cut a couple of hundred the other day in probably about 15 minutes or less and had a bunch of the strips left over that I put in a container for later cutting into squares.

 

[longcruise]

Those are looking better. The one that was torn up is an anomaly.?? I would not expect that to be related to lube. Here are some fired from my GPR yesterday. Lube was water and liquid dish soap. Ratio about 4:1 water:soap. They are lined up with each flipped to the opposite side. Dark side faced the powder and light side to the ball. These were still damp when picked up. Wiped after every shot. (Not a hunting lube).

 

[johnfrommd]

Investarms barrels can be very hard on patches until they are either hand lapped or smoothed out by shooting. I have hand lapped many but after turning 70, I looked for another way to get it done but still get good accuracy. My solution was to add 10 grains of corn meal over the powder. This keeps patches from coming apart and you will still get good groups. After a hundred, then start loading without the corn meal and see if the patch will hold.