why are barrels octagonal?

[Black Hand]

There were blocks made that also allowed them to be forged into the OCT shape while doing so.

THAT is documented fact look it up in barrel making.

Can you provide documentation to support the statement above?

 

[nhmoose]

Give me time in my books and YES look them up for yourself you want documentation. It is well known that was how they were made.

 

[Black Hand]

Give me time in my books and YES look them up for yourself you want documentation. It is well known that was how they were made.

Respectfully, I haven't made the claim and the historical arms-making books I read didn't mention anything of the sort. So if you have documentation, it would be appreciated.

 

[nhmoose]

I will work on it as fast as I can but look up barrel anvils. even the firefox books show them. They have been around for a long time and saved manufacturing from grinding the flats fully

 

[Black Hand]

I will work on it as fast as I can but look up barrel anvils. even the firefox books show them. They have been around for a long time and saved manufacturing from grinding the flats fully

Thank you - that gives me somewhere to start.

 

[George]

Here is a photo of a swage block in the book Guns And Gunmaking Tools Of Southern Appalachia by John Rice Irwin. There is no information about date. It is of a demonstration, not actual work on a barrel, but it shows how an octagonal barrel was shaped in the swage block with a matching concave hammer and a small sledge.

Spence

 

[Black Hand]

Judging from the image, it appears the swages would be used to shape the barrel after welding. Trying to weld the seam would be difficult/impossible in the half-octagon swage, as the hammer blows could not be directed to areas needing to weld. The shaping could conceivably be done at a lower heat then finished with files.

Excellent picture Spence!

 

[jrdavis]

For the steel to weld, it must be heated to the proper heat. This will also heat the tube in your drawing and hammering on the iron exterior will also affect the tube and collapse the tube. The tube at the core doesn't magically stay cold and stiff. You can't have it both ways...

I get the impression you don't understand the point I was trying to make as to how the skelp was welded!

 

[Black Hand]

I get the impression you don't understand the point I was trying to make as to how the skelp was welded!

I understand the concept if forge-welding just fine. My points were that a hollow tube isn't going to survive well being beaten while welding and that a thin-walled hollow tube makes a crappy mandrel to accomplish a forge-weld.

 

[jrdavis]

For the steel to weld, it must be heated to the proper heat. This will also heat the tube in your drawing and hammering on the iron exterior will also affect the tube and collapse the tube. The tube at the core doesn't magically stay cold and stiff. You can't have it both ways...

have you read this https://www.quora.com/How-were-musket-barrels-manufactured-in-the-early-modern-era read the part about a ribbon barrel

 

[M. De Land]

Here is a photo of a swage block in the book Guns And Gunmaking Tools Of Southern Appalachia by John Rice Irwin. There is no information about date. It is of a demonstration, not actual work on a barrel, but it shows how an octagonal barrel was shaped in the swage block with a matching concave hammer and a small sledge.

View attachment 2213
Spence

The mandrels used for forge welded barrels have a long shaft and on the end is a bulb/anvil of larger diameter, of the bore diameter they are looking to make, and is of hardened steel. It is not left in when the barrel is brought up to welding heat. It is installed after the skelp has been removed from the forge and is on the welding block. The seem it fluxed and forge hammering begins for a few inches against the bulb anvil on the mandrel. The mandrel is removed for the re-heat and the whole process repeated.
I would guess the octagon forming would be accomplished after the barrel is forge welded as I don't see how a seem on a circle (barrel bore) could be effectively welded from only a vertical octagonal hammer blow ,especially when it exterior would be formed as a tube initially .

 

[Darkhorse]

I guess I have a different view of the Gun shop at Colonial Williamsburg than some here. When Mr. Guzzler speaks about making American Longrifles I listen along with most of the folks I know who build rifles. Whether or not he's right about history isn't the point, he's closer to being right than 98% of everybody else. I respect the Master gunsmiths who have come out of Colonial Williamsburg.
I remember when Eric Von Aschwege first began posting on the ALR site, he was very young yet his talent was obvious. He is now an apprentice at Colonial Williamsburg. I wish him the best in his quest where ever it might lead him.
I would love to be known as a Master gunmaker but I know there is no chance of that. And that doesn't make me jealous of them in the least. I've been over the mountain a few times myself and have learned not to criticize those whose talents are way beyond my own.
As for why barrels are Octagonal it is because they wouldn't fit in the stock if they weren't.

 

[M. De Land]

What Archer wrote is pertinent as is; Who here has done any blacksmithing school ?
Where they teach, draw square then hammer to octagon & on down till round & the reasons for doing so.
And all this because still some think that because the mandrill is round & the scelp flat that the hammering will also be round.

The drawing out of the metal is faster & therefore more energy efficient in arm movement & forge fuel. The taper is more controllable as is the straightness of the work piece.
To hammer round all the way is a botch & very difficult to do. Try it.

As stated by another poster earlier, even the big hammer forging barrel machines do it this way.

This stuff appears to not be understood or well known.
If a person has the practical experience then they know.
O.

I just watched a barrel being forge welded again and it is done with a flat faced hammer alone as the skelp is turned back and forth,either side of the seem, in the half round swage block groove to angle the hammer blows into the seem weld. No external form die is used between the flat faced forge hammer and the skelp, against the mandrel anvil in the bore, during the forge weld.

 

[Chris Butcher]

I have found the profile was strictly for aesthetic purposes and served no function besides that. Hopefully Dave can elaborate if he comes across this. The Gunsmith of Colonial Williamsburg mentions this as does a few sources I have. At work so I don't have access to my literature on the bench.

i have one and wondered about the octaginal barrel

 

[smoothshooter]

The latest issue of American Rifleman has a article about the gunmakers at Colonial Williamsburg. The article reads more like a paid commercial but is still interesting. One comment made was new to me. It stated rifle barrels were made octagonal to designate the bore was rifled. I had never heard this before. On reflection, I believe original smoothbores I have seen were round and original rifles were octagonal. But, is this really the history of the shape?

No.

 

[Coot]

According to Clay Smith, (retired Williamsburg gunsmith), octagon to round is found on both rifle and smooth barrels. I have certainly see it on many original smooth bores.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Not sure but I think they look real purdy

 

[tenngun]

Its earier to mount a sight on a flat than a round

And you have to have a flat to mount a lock against
Even round barrels have a flat at the breach.
I doubt it had anything to do with caliber since big bores often had the one inch or so size.
Leman made .58 on a 15/16, the same size as his .36