Why hate CVA?

[Pork Chop]

I have been reading the posts since CVA announced that they are leaving the sidelock world. There have been cheers and jeers about it. Those that lament the leaving have stated their case with thought and clarity such that I can understand their position.

What I cannot understand is the disdain that some folks have for CVA. Some appear to have a downright hatred for them. I don't understand that mentality, and I want to see if someone can explain it to me.

As I see it, CVA introduced a couple of generations (or more) to muzzleloaders. Their products were not competition grade, but they were capable. They were not period correct, but they evoked the earlier times. The most important factor is that they were available off the shelf at almost every gun shop in the US at a very attractive price. They were sort of the Chevy of muzzleloaders in my eyes.

Am I missing something key? Can someone explain why there are people that HATE CVA?

 

[musketman]

I have been reading the posts since CVA announced that they are leaving the sidelock world. There have been cheers and jeers about it.

If they do leave the sidelock production, their logo would be a hypacritical error...

I didn't dislike the CVA I once had, they make good loaner guns for the brother-in-laws, saving your fine guns for yourself... :haha:

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

You already answered your own question... You said, "They were sort of the Chevy of muzzleloaders in my eyes." Well... that is EXACTLY how millions of other muzzleloaders see, or should I say SAW, Connecticut Valley Arms, CVA.

This is not meant to make you feel bad, or to make me feel good, or as an insult to anyone, but I'm trying to understand this as well. And though I don't "hate CVA", I am VERY DEEPLY & SORELY DISAPPOINTED by their actions--and as an average muzzleloading userm I feel betrayed by them.

How would YOU feel, if you found out that there would be NO more cars produced for less than (let's say) $100,000. None, zero, zilch, nada! Now there are no second cars, or third cars, or even ANY cars that the majority of the country need to drive (or could afford to even buy in the first place.) No more cars to "learn" on, no more cars to haul families around in, no more cars, BUT there are still the latest & greatest "high-tech" leading edge automobiles--available just for the person with the gold lined pockets. Yes, plenty of Cadillacs and Mercedes and BMWs and Lamborghinis, but NO more Chevys (or Fords if you prefer). How do you think you'd get along without your Chevy.

CVA has abandoned the principles of muzzleloading that was the reason(s)that MANY people were interested in muzzleloading to begin with. Now they are catering to a much different kind of buyer, who is mainly looking for a "modern single shot that just happens to load from the front".

Custom sidelock guns have been, and always will be, out-of-reach for the majority of muzzleloaders like me. I don't need to hear that fictional story about "saving up" for years to buy that ONE special custom made gun. That's HOOEY! The cost of those guns continually rises, so that a person like me can NEVER save enough to afford to buy one. Remember the cost of everything else is rising as well, so that "saved money" won't be there to begin with when the time comes. It will be spent on "luxury items" like bread and milk and clothing and heating oil, and electricy and gasoline...

OK, so what if CVA offers an "intro level" inline that looks like an NEF break open shotgun for around $100? Do I want one? NO! Would I ever want one? NO! Does this gun look like any kind of early American firearm? NO! Did Boone or Crockett use one like this new CVA inline? NO! Did the Minutemen or the Green Mt. Boys use something like these CVA inlines? NO! Did Stonewall Jackson's troops carry these break-open inlines? NO! How about Grant's men? NO! Then where is the historical link, the significance factor is missing, and for me that extra chance for a deer is getting less and less important as time passes by.

Sorry about the tirade, especially at this time of year and being that it's the Holiday Season too...

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to ALL!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[faw3]

Ya the logo needs to go and I told them so in a nice way by E mail,they said they would get backin 10 days ,its been about that now, I just told them my first ML was the first kit they put out ect ,ending in I had just got a Mountain rifle NIB, and since they had given up on the people that made them I was giveing up on them ,any CVA thing ,Deerslayers,ect( I didnt know how much stuff I did have) OH AND ADDED WS ARE TRYING TO GET ALL INLINES OUT OF THE ML SEASON HERE which will cost them if it can be put thru. Fred. Remember they understand 1 thing money.

 

[Swampman]

They have introduced million to this hobby. Let's hope those millions will move on to a quality product. Unfortunately there aren't really any quality products for less than $600.00.

 

[tg]

Deer Creek. Traditions and others will fill the void for future generations of ML newcommers, it is always a sad thing to see an old friend pass on...

 

[Rocky Johnson]

Fw I put that kit together also maybe 30 years ago,to get into Michigans frist muzzleloader season.Coast me $100. Had to shoot PRB. Shot a lot of deer with that 50ca. You look at the gun racks in the gun shops today and you don't see any new side locks,CVA must figure why make something that don't sell. :winking: Rocky

 

[roundball]

I have been reading the posts since CVA announced that they are leaving the sidelock world. There have been cheers and jeers about it. Those that lament the leaving have stated their case with thought and clarity such that I can understand their position.

What I cannot understand is the disdain that some folks have for CVA. Some appear to have a downright hatred for them. I don't understand that mentality, and I want to see if someone can explain it to me.

As I see it, CVA introduced a couple of generations (or more) to muzzleloaders. Their products were not competition grade, but they were capable. They were not period correct, but they evoked the earlier times. The most important factor is that they were available off the shelf at almost every gun shop in the US at a very attractive price. They were sort of the Chevy of muzzleloaders in my eyes.

Am I missing something key? Can someone explain why there are people that HATE CVA?

I think it's the age old issue of eliteism...some people view their acquisitions in their station in life as the benchmark against which other things are measured, disdaining anything they view as beneath them.

I don't think it's anything unique to CVA...they just happened to be the current one...same attitude would prevail if it had been Traditions, Deer Creek, Lyman, TC, etc, discontinuing their traditional line...sort of a 'class' mentality towards mass produced muzzleloaders compared to custom guns.

The larger point is for the traditional oriented form of muzzleloading to survive, there has to be somebody left standing in the aftermath of the cheap plastic inline onslaught, who makes an affordable, reliable, sidelock muzzleloader.

If the only option becomes one of expensive custom guns, traditional muzzleloading will cease to exist...the domino effect is there won't be a large enough base for accessories suppliers to stay in business...everything will dry up.

No, I agree with you, I take no joy in the demise on CVA's traditional ML line

 

[Mike Brooks]

I used to get whipped by a couple guys shooting those old CVA "Kentucky" rifles all the time. I'm sure you guys remember those old beech stocked "Kentuckies" with the two piece stocks..... :haha:
Well, with the right guy on the trigger, those things could out shoot anything else on the line.
Other than that, I have no sentimental attatchment to CVA. I feel as TG does, there's a ton of low end companies to fill the void. That's probably why CVA is moving on, too much competition for low end side locks.

 

[bnail]

For those diehard CVA owners out there, no offense to you or your choices, I'll never spite a man for carrying whatever he wants. This rant is directed solely at CVA.

IMO, CVA never offered a quality product, and their half-hearted attempt at a longrofle was laughable. Also, Where, exactly, is "Connecticut Valley?":youcrazy:
Thompson Center, with their quality and great costumer service, should have ground CVA into the dirt long ago. By Divesting themselves of their sidelick line, CVA proved they never had anything but bottom line interests at heart. T/C on the other hand has come out with, I believe, the first modern flinter to hit the shelves in decades.
If you want authenticity, there's companies for that, if you just want a good quality shooter, then there's companies for that too, but CVA offered neither.
So I Say good ridance to 'em :hatsoff:

 

I think it's the age old issue of eliteism...some people view their acquisitions in their station in life as the benchmark against which other things are measured, disdaining anything they view as beneath them.

That is just plain human nature. It happens with EVERYTHING. We're ALL guilty of it. Flinlock shooters think caps are "beneath" them, cap shooters think inlines are "beneath" them, PC guys think fantasy guns are "beneath" them, guys that use knapped flints think cut agates are "beneath" them, guys with custom guns think off the rack guns are "beneath" them. You could go on for ever, goex shooters think pyrodex is "beneath" them. Of course not EVERY person with a preference thinks the alternative is beneath them but we all have some. We just don't like to view it that way or admit it IMO

Cody

 

[Swampman]

"They should really be embarrassed about a major league screw-up like this one. CVA, as those in the industry know, is no manufacturer of muzzleloaders. The CVA brand rifle falls into a class of the most dangerous, poorly made muzzleloaders ever inflicted on American sportsmen. There were so many successful personal injury suits against CVA branded guns that the company quickly ended up in bankruptcy. All that really exists is a brand name; there is no such thing as a CVA manufacturing plant.

RW: On the topic of muzzleloading safety, I believe you know the problems associated with extruded barrels as found on CVA, Winchester, and Traditions branded muzzleloaders, and that a lot of people have been getting hurt. Should consumers be concerned about these soft CVA / Traditions barrels, that have sub-10,000 PSI proofed barrels (700 kilopounds per centimeter squared), when used as directed by the respective owners manuals that tell the new owner to pull the trigger on 25,000 to 27,000 PSI three pellet loads?

HB: We should all be very concerned, if not downright alarmed. The sub-standard CVA branded product on the market right now is from an import company that calls itself "Blackpowder Products, Inc.," which is totally Spanish owned and operated. They have no testing facilities in the United States, and import their "Cheap Charlie" muzzleloaders, built to no stated or known standards, branded as "CVA" and "Winchester Muzzleloading" rifles. A new generation of hunters is at great risk, if you believe all the graphic emergency room reports. It is this type of sub-standard, dangerous product made from soft "extruded" steel that caused me and my son to build muzzleloaders that are crafted like real modern rifles, not tinker-toys."

 

[kenneth strickland]

I was wondering about the CVA animosity also. Dropping the sidelock line is just economics probably. I didn't know about the extruded barrels though. Can anyone give information on my CVA Mountain rifle. The barrel says USA and has the date of 11-66 on it. It is accurate and I don't load over 80 grains FFg Goex with rb. :v

 

[Swampman]

I think it's safe enough. It's the newer barrels that apparently weren't proofed for the recommended charges. I wouldn't shoot heavy charges in the CVAs I've owned.

 

[dwarvenchef]

I have a CVA kit from the mid 70's that has many "Wrong" parts. I have picked up a CVA kit every 10 years or so and each one was messed up somewhere. That first kit is not finnished due to the fact it will cost as much as the rifle is worth to get it to fit and maybe fire. I'll just buy another TC kit that I know will be worth the time and money.

CVA may have been a driving force for the traditional look at one time but "Profit" was always their motive on every decision. While that is what makes the world go round, without servicing the customer with a quality service, you will not get the profits you require to stay open. Shifting their focus to only making what is hot ""Now"" will in the long run prove to kill them. CVA IMHO is dying. We will see them grasping at straws to try to keep in buisness, unless they accept a deversity of ideas and products to remain open, They will close.

 

[Pittsburghunter]

DC the funny thing is though they sold more m/l than anyone else in the US last year. How? I don't know except that Walmart sold a ton of them.

 

[Swampman]

"Clean fresh oats, cost good money. If you're willing to accept oats that have already been through the horse, they are cheaper."

At less than $100.00 they are a place to start, and very easy to sell. I bought a CVA Hawken with a bunch of extras for $75.00. I completely reworked it, and gave it away as a gift to someone I don't think will ever shoot it.

 

[Pork Chop]

"They should really be embarrassed about a major league screw-up like this one. CVA, as those in the industry know, is no manufacturer of muzzleloaders. The CVA brand rifle falls into a class of the most dangerous, poorly made muzzleloaders ever inflicted on American sportsmen. There were so many successful personal injury suits against CVA branded guns that the company quickly ended up in bankruptcy. All that really exists is a brand name; there is no such thing as a CVA manufacturing plant.

RW: On the topic of muzzleloading safety, I believe you know the problems associated with extruded barrels as found on CVA, Winchester, and Traditions branded muzzleloaders, and that a lot of people have been getting hurt. Should consumers be concerned about these soft CVA / Traditions barrels, that have sub-10,000 PSI proofed barrels (700 kilopounds per centimeter squared), when used as directed by the respective owners manuals that tell the new owner to pull the trigger on 25,000 to 27,000 PSI three pellet loads?

HB: We should all be very concerned, if not downright alarmed. The sub-standard CVA branded product on the market right now is from an import company that calls itself "Blackpowder Products, Inc.," which is totally Spanish owned and operated. They have no testing facilities in the United States, and import their "Cheap Charlie" muzzleloaders, built to no stated or known standards, branded as "CVA" and "Winchester Muzzleloading" rifles. A new generation of hunters is at great risk, if you believe all the graphic emergency room reports. It is this type of sub-standard, dangerous product made from soft "extruded" steel that caused me and my son to build muzzleloaders that are crafted like real modern rifles, not tinker-toys."

I find it interesting that you quote Randy Wakeman, but won't put his full name.

On the elitism observation, that has some merit. I know that a lot of folks that I have spoken with hated CVA products WITHOUT EVERY HAVING ACTUALLY SEEN ONE OR HELD ONE. That to me is pure stupidity. They hate CVA because the firearms were produced in Spain. It is laughable because some of these same people will go on and on about how much better the Traditions versions are - yet they are unaware that they were produced by the same manufacturer! When that is pointed out, they mumble something unintelligible and move on.

Now, regarding where is the Connecticut Valley, I can't tell you exactly, but I believe that CVA did start or was at least for some time operated in Connecticut. They did the same thing that IBM computers did - they found suppliers and assembled their product without doing much if any actual manufacturing. As time went on, they moved to a single source supplier - which resulted in lower cost and potentially lower quality.

There are not hoardes of entry level suppliers out there for sidelocks. Traditions has reduced their offerings. Deer Creek is producing what is best described as a replica CVA Mountain Rifle. That is about it.

I do not buy into the premise that there can be no good entry level sidelocks that cost less than $600. If that were true, it would be true in ALL industries. Just look at centerfire shotguns. How long has the Stevens break barrel single shot shotguns been available as an entry level piece? They are STILL under $80 at WalMart. Since they have to stand up to more pressure from smokeless powder, the premise that you can't build a quality muzzleloader that inexpensively is clearly :bull:

I doubt that I will fully understand the hatred that some folks have for CVA, but I can understand the feeling of betrayal in their dropping the entire line. That having been said, it is a business decision. The sad reality is that the rantings of the uninformed about the modest priced sidelocks scared a lot of people off from buying them. The advent of the inline with BS being spewed forth about their superiority was the final nail in the doffin. Unfortunately, CVA and the other entry level manufacturers could not or would not fight the perceptions. It is sad that CVA has passed into history as a producer of sidelocks.

 

[Swampman]

I don't know Randy Wakeman. I have owned several CVAs. They are about equal to Lyman and Traditions products. T/C is made in the US and the locks aren't as gritty. The important thing to find out, is wheather or not the company proofs their guns for the loads they recommend.

 

[dwarvenchef]

Not suprised that they sell alot in wallyworld but how many where kits and how many compleated? I would imagin (from my own experence) that many of people will not pick up another ML. My worst kit (the 70's era one) has the hammer fall a 1/4" away from the nipple. I will need to reshape the lock and cut into the Bbl to get the hammer to fall on the cap right.

This is just my experience and thoughts on this company, Their finnished products may be better, I never had one. But by the above experience's I will never buy another. That is how they loose repeat buisness, something you need to stay open.