Why hate CVA?

[Pittsburghunter]

It's like getting a car that is a lemon it takes forever to buy another one from the company. I guess I have just been lucky with the ones I have bought. Both shoot great and function fine.

Them not selling sidelocks anymore is a tough break but as said earlier by tg newbies will get by with Traditions and other brands. Maybe even Cabella's will give us an entry level gun now.

CVA is not going away soon though they are #1 in m/l sales in the world.

 

[howdydoit]

I ranted at CVA simply because for a first timer who doesnt want to spend 600.00 for there first side lock gun. CVA may not be top of the line but of the 2 that I have in my closet for about 200.00, I couldnt ask for more fun for me or my 7 year old son. We love them and will shoot them for years to come or until we decide to buy a more quality rifle. Even then we will shoot these nice litte guns. one is a bobcat for hunting the other is an old squirrel. For them to drop this line of affordable semi traditional rifles has left many other would be ML shooters a little more expencive rifle or kit to contend with. If this keeps even a few from picking up our wonderful sport, would this not be a shame. To go with a style that might possibly be link with modern rifles soon, doesnt make sense. Also the Logo is hippacritical. :yakyak:

 

[John Wasmuth]

I've owned CVA's in kit form and ready finished versions for several decades. Never had one that wouldnt shoot, never had one that wouldnt put meat on he table. It is sad that they dropped out of the picture. I have a few traditions rifles that are the same things screw for screw, and as long as they keep makin em, i'll keep buyin em.

 

[Maynerd62411]

How do you think you'd get along without your Chevy.
NOOOOOO, don't take my Chevy!!!!

 

[JackAubrey]

I have never been impressed w/ CVA's quality.However,I do keep a .50 cal.frontier carbine, as it's called, behind the seat in my truck.(We seem to be having a problem w/ roaming pit bulls as of late!)I did not want one of my expensive guns bouncing about back there so the hardwood stocked little gun gets to ride.If it gets dinged sowhat, its a CVA.As for any company that abandons the traditional side of muzzleloading, all I can say is Via con Dios!Best regards,J.A.

 

Nothing personal, but you raise a couple points that have been raised before.

And though I don't "hate CVA", I am VERY DEEPLY & SORELY DISAPPOINTED by their actions--and as an average muzzleloading userm I feel betrayed by them.

You can't really be "betrayed" by them, as they owe you nothing to begin with. CVA is a business and nothing more. Their goal is to make money, not support anyone's personal desires or interests.

CVA has abandoned the principles of muzzleloading that was the reason(s)that MANY people were interested in muzzleloading to begin with.

Again, they are a business and follow "business principles". That must always be taken into account when criticizing a company for moving in a direction that displeases us. It's not about us. It's about them making money for the owners or stockholders.

Now they are catering to a much different kind of buyer, who is mainly looking for a "modern single shot that just happens to load from the front".

It's clear from the above statement that you do understand the reasoning after all. They are out to make money, nothing more. To do otherwise would be foolish. I would not run my business any differently. Remember, they are not a charity who's mission is to introduce people to muzzleloading. :winking:

 

[Johnny Tremain]

HEY!

I liked them.

Years ago I bought a Navy 44 cal revolver kit. I followed it to the letter. When I first leaded all six, I fired it, and had a wicked daisy chain, all 6 fired at once.

I contacted CVA and they told me the directions had a mis print about the amount of gap between the barrel and cylinder.

They sent me a box in the mail. It had a brand new Navy 44 kit, and a pair of 44 Armys in the fancy box. I mailed them back the old Navy 44. Sold the Navy 44 kit for $50, $40 more than I paid for the first kit.

And happily fired the pair of Army 44s for years.

Nice guys CYA :-D

 

[Pork Chop]

I am envious! I want a display/presentation case for my pistols! Glad to hear that they did right by you.

 

[oomcurt]

While what you say may be true..about making money for the stock holders and all... That reasoning by no means sits well with me and probably a lot others. I know that business is business per se. BUT, that does not mean that I personally excuse such things. Actually, I have come to despise that thinking. To be honest, today it is more that thinking than what used to be in the past when companies actually cared what thier customers thought and preferred. Now, while I certainly don't object to profits being made...that is something differently entirely than running a company just so some fat cats can sit on thier can and rake in money instead of working for a living. Today one hears this thing of "Well, I am taking a risk by investing". So be it, no one told you to put your money in this or that company. To me this idea smacks of screw the customer...the company is all that matters instead of considering the customer and thier wants.

 

While what you say may be true..about making money for the stock holders and all... That reasoning by no means sits well with me and probably a lot others. I know that business is business per se. BUT, that does not mean that I personally excuse such things. Actually, I have come to despise that thinking. To be honest, today it is more that thinking than what used to be in the past when companies actually cared what thier customers thought and preferred. Now, while I certainly don't object to profits being made...that is something differently entirely than running a company just so some fat cats can sit on thier can and rake in money instead of working for a living. Today one hears this thing of "Well, I am taking a risk by investing". So be it, no one told you to put your money in this or that company. To me this idea smacks of screw the customer...the company is all that matters instead of considering the customer and thier wants.

You may have misinterpreted my meaning.

We all agree that "screwing the customer" is bad, but dropping a product that is not selling and producing one that does sell, is not screwing anyone. Why would a company purposely go bankrupt making a product that doesn't sell enough to make them a profit?

Should Ford continue making the Edsel because a few people like it, even though it loses money for them?

We all tend to view things based on our own personal wants and desires, but businesses don't exist to please us. They need to make a profit or they can't make anything for anybody.

 

[Pork Chop]

Dale center punched that one. The CVA Bobcat that I bought from WalMart last year was received by the store in 2003. Now, I know of NOTHING else in WalMart that will sit around that long. Clearly, there was not enough market to continue production. That could be due to lack of marketing or improper merchandising in the store (I had to ask for it as it was not on display) CVA dropping sidelocks was most likely not done to line some fat cat's pockets, but rather to cease the production of a product that they were not selling in sufficient quantities to cover expenses. SURELY no one would have a problem with that scenario...

 

[bpbrs]

About 15 years ago I won a CVA Hunter/Hawken 50 cal.
It has cut cards, candles and split RB on the ax.
It is a light & fast handling rifle I like to use for hunting.

If you take the 100.00 cost in 1970 calculate it to inflation you come up with about $510.00 in todays market.

It has a leaf spring in the lock...is easier to repair than any of my TC's or Predesoli's.

While those who gripe about CVA closing the door on sidelocks. One might consider why would CVA stay around witrh no consumer support?

I would venture to say TC's butter does not come from the half dozen ML they offer; but from the extensive line of pistols and barrel offerings.

Last month the guys poked at me for bringing along my CVA SxS 12 ga.
I took the first bird flushed, then 2 more.

They are closing a line down, to bad for the beginner. Traditions will pick up the slack at 3 times the price of the old CVA sidelocks.
When Traditions centerfire firearms business picks up, you'll see them drop a few lines.
Traditions requireds Distributors to make a 100 firearm purchase my last check.

We have so much firearms and ammuntion on the market now it is a matter of time till things start to be cut.
Manufactures can not afford to carry large inventories. The Box sporting goods outlets will not be able to carry one of everything either.

Remember K-Mart biggest around? How many Bass Pros and Ganders Mountains can each town sustane selling a pennies above product cost?


If one purchased a CVA 30 years ago and you still have it you made a wise investment.
Look at it like this, how many autos and computers have ya purchased in the last 30 years that still work? :hmm:

Regards bpb

 

[oomcurt]

Hi bpb,

Well, to be honest...car wise our present car is 2 years and one month short of going on 20 years. Almost all on the cars if not all...we have bought in the past 30 years we have been fortunate enough to have them last about the same time. No way on God's green earth would I ever buy a new car. Fact is, if the one we have goes south I'll be looking to buy an old pickup that does not have any of this computer junk in it. Now with computers...even though I got rid of two...I did it because of the newer software..not because they didn't work. I guess I am just one of those old fashioned types that just hate modern things. I know this...when the computer we have now will no longer work due to needing a newer operating system and such...I will simply quit using the internet. Telephones and snail mail still works...just takes longer. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Hi bpb,
".....I know this...when the computer we have now will no longer work due to needing a newer operating system and such...I will simply quit using the internet....."

I don't understand...why would you quit using the Internet?

 

Now with computers...even though I got rid of two...I did it because of the newer software..not because they didn't work.

With all due respect, when things improve and become more efficient, you stop using them? That's different.

I guess I am just one of those old fashioned types that just hate modern things. I know this...when the computer we have now will no longer work due to needing a newer operating system and such...I will simply quit using the internet.

Since you "hate modern things", I'm curious as to why you started using a computer to begin with? Was it out of absolute necessity, or did you just want to sample the modern world?

Telephones and snail mail still works...just takes longer.

If your phone quites working will you replace it with one that has a crank on the side? :hatsoff:

 

[oomcurt]

Well, I'm still using win 98. Last time I checked which was some time ago....no way am I gonna pay what they want for a new operating system. Also, I still use a dial up ISP....not gonna pay what they want for a DSL or anything else like that. The way I see it....it is sort of a built in obsolesence thing. Not too mention with things getting faster and faster will probably need new hardware also then. I'd rather put all that money on guns or hunting.

 

[oomcurt]

Hi Dale,

Well, I guess I live in the past. For example when I was younster in grade school...no such thing as a hand held circular saw...if there were, definetely not a common thing. As far as a crank phone, I had a aunt, when I was a little kid that had and used one...kinda neat. To me, efficiency at this time in my life is almost meaningless. I did get on the net mainly because I was curious. Definetely not because I was interested in modern technology. Far from it. Basically, I use the net as a tool. And like a tool...I can get by without it if I have to or want to. Where I live they have strip malls as well as the larger type mall. I haven't been in any large mall in over 10 years. Can't stand the places or the stores in them. Still shave with a old Gillette safety razor and so forth. :v

 

[roundball]

Well, I'm still using win 98. Last time I checked which was some time ago....no way am I gonna pay what they want for a new operating system. Also, I still use a dial up ISP....not gonna pay what they want for a DSL or anything else like that. The way I see it....it is sort of a built in obsolesence thing. Not too mention with things getting faster and faster will probably need new hardware also then. I'd rather put all that money on guns or hunting.

Well, FWIW, the good news is that new PCs have become very inexpensive and they come with a copy of the latest operating system already installed on them (ie: Windows-XP)...and Internet commerce has headed that way en mass, offering price reductions on goods if you order them direct, everything from clothes to perscriptions.

You might look at it like an investment to actually save you[url] money...in[/url] fact the money saved would pay for a new PC in a year or so...plus no gasoline expenses driving around shopping, less pollution, the list goes on and on...I never set foot in a store last year or this year for Christmas gifts...bought every one of them through the Internet and found them waiting for me on my front porch when I'd come home from work...cheaper and zero time wasted shopping, driving, parking, etc...and that's a big quality of life issue for me.

The next step businesses will take in the future will be to start imposing surcharges on doing some things manually that involve face to face and/or paper transactions because that is so labor intensive and costly...and the consumer who chooses that path will pay for it.

IMO, the estimated timeframe that a PC & Internet access will become a household necessity is already here...so in my case, if I had to choose between a new PC or a new rifle, it would be the[url] PC...in[/url] fact, if the only way I could get a new PC would be to sell an existing rifle, I'd do that...just my .02 cents on the matter

 

[Stumpkiller]

While I am sad to see any loss of traction in the sidelock manufacturing community it does not surprise me. And I'm not upset with CVA's decision. They have to do what sells.

CVA used to be the "impulse buy" of muzzleloaders. You went to Tandy or Grants (a department store) and, on your way to the front to check-out, you'd pass the CVA section on the end of an isle with a finished rifle or kit in a box with transparent window showing the lock and stock and say "Oh yeah, I'll get one of those, too." I think A LOT of us got into muzzleloading this way.

What is really too bad is that we are loosing our "low-end" models (not to diss CVA) and the technology and machinery to produce inexpensive sidelocks. Maybe it will be like Martin Bows, and a few "old timers" are kept on the payroll (from Damon-Howatt) who know the tricks of building wood bows on a semi-custom basis. Eventually there will be a change in hunting regulations that will re-open the niche. If not, sidelocks will become like side-by-side shotguns are now. Expensive, but with a dedicated customer base. It will be even worse for us, because anyone who can load a semi-auto can load a double. It's not so easy to teach yourself flintlock.

Good thing we have this site in place already.

Another thought. Flintlocks effectively died out once before and a fellow name of Turner Kirkland got them back on the board. We ain't dead yet. It's still MUCH better than it was before Disney spun the Davy Crockett series. :thumbsup:

 

[oomcurt]

Oh man...to me that is a horror story, really. See, that is one of my pet gripes...this thing about labor cost. So, lets see...get rid of more jobs..more people being literally displaced. :cursing: Call me old fashioned...but I just don't buy into that mind set. Nothing personal towards you at all in this. Less pollution? I don't buy into that either. Time? I have tons of it..I'm retired, thank God. No way would it work for me to deal with most folks today in the working world. Not with all this being careful what you say and how you say it thing. Kinda amazing in a way...what we have given up all in the name of "progress". Used to be a 40 hour week was the norm..overtime pay after that. Today....not only is that gone for the most part...stores today don't want to have full time employees...to expensive to pay benefits. Then you have folks just dying to work at home plugged into thier work..that way they can work even longer hours. Not to mention cell phones...now thier bosses can call them everywhere...Egad! Well...not me.