why not biuld one ?

[boommer]

HI!! everybody first post on site.I got laid off work today till spring probably so everybody knows that idle hands is the devils work shop so i decided to build my first rifle a allen box lock in 40 or 45 fast twist barrel from a kit from pecatonica river long rifle supply can i get a little input from you folks on the box lock action what i am looking to do is throw big slugs for the bore longer range I do cast my own and shoot bpcp but not alot front stuffer knowlage I do have two 50 's I want a shooter not a hunting rifle got anof of them but I dont want a lead sled so what do you think lets hear it and kit comes with green mnt.barrel the 45 is 1-18 the 40 is 1-16 twist my hope is to get 300 or more yards out of it maybe or maybe i am just blowing smoke tell me

 

[MercerLake]

:v Sounds like a job for a paper patched bullet to me! False muzzle might aid in loading or coned muzzle to get a full sized slug started. Let us know how it goes! :v

 

[arquebus]

Hey Boommer, Sounds like a great project! For 300yd shooting either the .40 or .45 would do the job just fine. In fact the .40 would be a good choice out to 500yds or so & the .45 seems to be the choice for out to 1000yds in MLLR competition. That 1:18" twist for the .45 would stabilize a bullet of about 525gn +/-. If you opt for a .45 caliber you would be basically shooting a .451 (as per the old British longrange rifles, ie Rigby, Gibbs, etc.). If you shoot any .45 caliber BPCR guns you could most probably use some of the moulds you already have, you'd just have to size the bullets down a bit further. I shoot a Navy Arms repro. Rigby in .451 & I size my bullets to .452" & they are a slip-fit into the bore. Easy to load & very accurate. I only shoot out to 100yds, & use a lighter bullet (Lyman 457121PH @ 475gns) but it'll easily keep five shots in a 1.5" group when shot prone with a sling. One thing I've found is that it prefers 2Fg over 3Fg & seems to need a wad under the bullet, my rifle prefers felt wads but a Vege Fibre, Poly, or card wad may work in yours.
I'm not familiar with the action you'll be using, but my only caution in that department would be not to use a rifle with a nipple mounted in a drum, a patent breech is much safer due to the much higher pressures involved when shooting heavy conicals. The Green Mountain bullet barrels have a very good reputation, I know of quite a few being used in international ML competition.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree: The .40 is the choice out to 500 yards. The .45 is the choice if you are going to be shooting out to 1,000 Yards.

Us a fiber wad or wool felt wad to protect the base of the bullet. Paper patching the bullet is the way to go. see:

http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

And, with the heavy loads you are using to push those slugs, use FFg powder. Your biggest concern will be burning out the nipples on the rifle quickly, because of the pressures generated in those loads.

I am also not familiar with the Allen Box Lock action-- I thought box locks were actions that are used in Shotguns( and mostly in cartridge, breechloading guns, not MLers, and not in rifles. So much for what I know. I would love to see a picture of this action. Is this a " Hammerless " action? ( That only means that the hammers are hidden inside the lock, which is why the actions are wider, and became called " Box Locks ", to distinguish them from the more traditional, slim, sidelocks.)

PS: I googled " Allen Box Lock" and came up with a picture of such a lock being sold by Pecatonica River. Interesting.

 

[boommer]

yea guys I seen this action when I went there they are not far from the house it look purdy strong. nice trigger off the bat needs a little tweak I was surprised.I also saw a built one there for sale there for sale nicely done in walnut and I would say 10# gun 1" oct barrel 32" 1-18 twist had a crescent butt I go with shotgun style.the tang is set up nice for a sight.the owner of pecatonica river after talking to him for while going over different styles I wanted to stay traditional but he said for what I was trying to do the allen would be best but it would be nice to hear from somebody that has played with this action or style.powder wise Iam a swiss boy has out preformed Goex EVERY TIME for me more money better bang in my 50 Iuse 1.5 swiss 90 GRS and 395 GR slug SHOOTS GREAT AND CLEAN so I think I will start with 1.5 then 2ff see witch is better nothing wrong with GOEX but with my cartridge rifles I have had better luck.I would rather not paper patch my slugs but if i must i must I am not a comp shooter just love shooting and working with guns and this is another venture and I NEED HELP !! I TRY TO KEEP THINGS SIMPLE WITH GOOD RESULTS first build and i dont type well and dont spell well and have a hard time putting it to screen I DO understand it took me two hours to type this !!I have been handloading for 25 years for performance and open to all views

 

[arquebus]

Boommer,

I honestly think you'll get great results with lubed bullets. Paper patching is fine too, but not necessary. I've tried both & don't see any advantage with the PP bullets at the distances I shoot over (100yd/m). Just slug your muzzle & size the bullets to a hair under BORE size, you just want a slip-fit with little to no contact with rifling. The bullets will bump up to fill the rifling when fired.

 

[boommer]

arguebus I agree and what you are saying about a slip fit on the slug and casted of pure lead it should bump up.The fast twist of the barrel I [THINK} A SNUG FITTING slug I would have a bear of a time seating it and shaving it. next problem is finding a mold lyman has a .451 volunteer mold but from the looks of it the lube groves are not as large as I would like. I can go custom I would rather not just because price for the reason the rifle might not like it then Iam stuck with useless mold that nobody wants.I also like to know how do you guys use fiber cards without using lube to stick to the base with my cartridge rifles I clean the base with alcohol before seating my bullets you don't want them sucking up going for a ride.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Buy a standard size mold, and then sizing dies to reduce it first to .454, and then down to .451. You can find plenty of fine molds in .458 diameter in all different kinds of weight, grease grooves, nose shapes, etc. Study both ML BP handloading materials, but also get the manuals for reloading single shot( Ballard, Springfield, Sharps, Ruger) BP cartridge guns, to see what bullets, and what loads they use. There are 250 grain .45 colt pistol bullets made in molds of .454, which work fairly well in some .45 cal.ML rifles. There are other weight choices, in molds that cast between 280, and 530 grains that are also used for hunting and target work. Since most all molded bullets need to be sized to .001 above bore diameter, if loading them in brass casings, or .001 small than bore diameter, if using them in a ML rifle, Its the bullet sizing die that you will want to spend money on- and they are way cheaper than the cost of molds.

 

[boommer]

HI PAUL The problem with sizing down that far from .459 or .457 is that you lose to much lube groove capacity and the .452 or .454 are to lite.Iam starting to think about a custom .457 barrel just because of all the molds I have in that range.I don't want to shoot competition just buddy shoots ! It's great to have your friends shoot guns that are a little different and {BLACK POWDER}

 

[paulvallandigham]

Well, you can order molds in the .451, .452, 454., or .457 calibers to fit your needs. The only reason to size them down is to use paper patching on them, which largely eliminates the need for grease grooves in the bullet. The shallow grooves that remain after sizing are just right to hold the paper to the bullet while the slug is loaded and fired. The lands will cut the paper so it can blow off the back of the bullet shortly after leaving the muzzle. Its looks like confetti at a parade when you first see a gun fire paper patched bullets.

Why not stick to cast bullets the correct size for your barrel, size them in a lubrisizer, just like for cartridge guns, but use a soft lube like bore butter, or moose snot, or crisco, or SPG lube, which Steve Garbe designed for use in BP Cartridge guns? If all you are going to do is plink and target shoot with a buddy, then they will be more than adequate for that work. I would load squib loads, using a few grains( 10-15) of BP, and a cast round ball, keeping my plinking at 25 yards and less. Whether used in a cartridge rifle, or MLer, the light loads are easy on the shoulder and ears, are accurate for plinking small targets, like bottle caps, as far as you can see them, and allow you to do a lot of shooting for a little bit of money, and get used to that big hunting gun you will shoot once or twice a year with your hunting loads.

 

[arquebus]

Boommer, I have used the Lyman 457121PH mould & while the lube grooves aren't that wide there are lots of them so there has been no problem with a lack of lube. By the way, despite it's number, it throws a bullet smaller than .457" & so does not require much sizing to get it down to .451"/.452". As far as custom moulds go, here is a link to a mould maker in northern Idaho[url] http://www.mountainmolds.com/[/url] you can design your own bullet design, with his online CAD program, with lube grooves as you would like them & his prices are very good, no more than an off the shelf RCBS, Saeco, or Lyman, in most cases.
With wads, I use the felt 'Wonder Wad' type & have had no noticeable problem with them sticking to the bullet's base. I generally find them about 10ft in front of the shooting line.