• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Why pure lead RB's

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Deacon4

36 Cal.
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
54
Reaction score
0
:confused:
Fellers, been shooting BP and all pure lead RB's for many years. But why pure lead? Since the patch grips the ball and fills the rifling, would a little alloy (wheel weights) make a big difference? I know pure lead , if it upsets during firing, will fill and seal the space better and flatten when it hits something. Is there other reasons? Fill me and my barrel in on an answer.
Your Disobedient Servant,
Deacon
 
Better expansion in game, for one thing. And alloys tend to cast smaller than pure lead. Now if you were casting some complicated conical, I doubt that one or two percent tin would hurt much, and would help the mold fill better. 40 to 1 alloy has a BNH of 8.3 or more than twice that of plain ol' lead.
 
Deacon Goodfellow said:
:confused:
Fellers, been shooting BP and all pure lead RB's for many years. But why pure lead? Since the patch grips the ball and fills the rifling, would a little alloy (wheel weights) make a big difference? I know pure lead , if it upsets during firing, will fill and seal the space better and flatten when it hits something. Is there other reasons? Fill me and my barrel in on an answer.
Your Disobedient Servant,
Deacon
Since I shoot a lot but don't cast I'm always looking for cheap round balls for informal plinking...bought a 1000 from a guy trying to get his little independent business started up and was surprised they were made from wheel weights, not pure lead.

Not sure how much a ball upsets at ignition, but never-the-less for 25/50yd plinking at the range they shoot as good as my Hornday's and much cheaper...but for hunting I'd still want pure lead for the expansion benefit over a hard ball.
 
One thing I can think of is the patch material, between the lands and the ball,will partially embed into the ball giving a better grip. A patch cannot grip a harder ball as well and accruacy would suffer. Just my opinion.
 
AMEN :hatsoff:

Folks that don't use a tight patch/ball combo will never get the accuracy others do that do use this tight patch/ball combo.

That is the reason for the soft lead just as you said, so that it will be surely gripped by the patch that is actually squeezed into the soft lead. This will not happen with a ball that is too small for the bore, no matter how thick the patch. The patch has to impart its material in the ball, not just grip it somewhat. Might as well be shooting a smoothbore. (No offense to the smoothbore shooters either)

You have to understand that the ball does not want to turn out of the barrel. It wants to go straight out. So there has to be a very tight combonation of patch and ball for this to happen. Otherwise, the hot gasses under the extreme preasure burn right past the ball, ruinging accuracy and causing the balls path to be eratic out of the barrel. Thus accuracy suffers.

We should have a muzzleader 101 section where everyone who is new and wants to start out on the right foot should go to this section of the forum. They would be told some basics about safety, ballistics and how to load the weapon. Included in this section would be, in order to achieve the best accuracy, inherint in any muzzle loader, you must have a tight fitting ball and patch combonation.

And then they can work on which powder, which powder charge, which lube, etc after finding the right combonation of tight fitting patch/ball for their weapon.

That is why the old gun makers would make a rifle specific mould to fit your weapon, cause they was all different.



rabbit03
 
How can one remove the tin, alominy, impurities, etc. from used wheel weights or other scrap lead materials and wind up with almost pure lead?
 
From what I have heard it is a very hard process to do. I think the cost involved would prohibit it.

If your looking for soft lead queery the forum for lead and you can probably find alot concerning the subject.

If I were you I would go to the scrap yards or a plumbing company or somewhere to find soft lead and melt it down and mold your own balls. I bought about 400 lbs at a scrap yard a long time ago and still have plenty of lead to mold.

My thoughts

rabbit03
 
none of my local scrap yards handle lead. I'm doing OK by having my dentist save all of the little lead shields used when he xrays...I get a bag full, including some disposable gloves for sanitary reasons, about every 3 months...I'm also waiting for them to tear down my chiropractor's building, as he has a lead lined xray room, and I hope to get access to that lead...
It seems the enviro panic has made lead an untouchable to some businesses...Hank
 
At one time, lead was going for as high as $.50 per pound, because the Chinese were buying up all the metal they could find in our scrap yards. Prices on steel, aluminum, copper, zinc, lead, and of course Silver, and gold, to some extent, went up. Now, I saw where someone bought lead for $.`15 per pound. The last time I looked at lead prices, it was going for $.16 a pound, and that was quite a while ago. If current prices hold, the price of lead shot will also fall back to something reloaders can afford.

Its far cheaper to buy pure lead than to acquire the equipment to remove zinc, tin, and antimony from other sources of lead. Stay away from car and truck batteries. There are still lots of lead pipe out there, and roofers will still be using lead sheeting to seal around chimneys, and vents. All the synthetic substitutes get beat up pretty fast by UV light in the sun, crack, and fail. Talk to roofers and see if you can't get the scrap lead they remove when doing a reroufing job on older homes. They also have scraps cut when fitting new lead that they gather up, and either cast themselves, or eventually sell to a scrap yard for coffee money. It is considered hazardous waste, so it is set aside to go to metal scrap dealers, rather than pay the cost of taking it to a hazardous waste dump. Find out where the nearest such dump is to you, and contact the folks. They would just as soon have you take a few hundred pounds of lead rather than put it in their landfills.

You will need your own metal hardness tester. Check Brownell's catalog. There are some inexpensive testers out there that work well enough for the kind of thing you need.
 
If you have worked up a load for your choice of material, does it really matter what it is as long as you use it consistantly??. :hmm:
 
rabbit03 said:
The patch has to impart its material in the ball, not just grip it somewhat. Might as well be shooting a smoothbore.
Surely this is an antecdotal comment...
 
Sorry I meant inprint not impart. You can see this for yourself when you pull a patch and ball that has been loaded in the barrel. You can actually see the imprint of the material on the ball if the patch/ball is to be the right configuration to get the BEST accuracy.


rabbit03
 
rabbit03 Said:
The patch has to impart its material in the ball, not just grip it somewhat. Might as well be shooting a smoothbore.
roundball Said:
Surely this is an antecdotal comment...
rabbit03 Said:
Sorry I meant inprint not impart.
Has nothing to do with which one of those words you chose...has to do with your whole statement.

Many people use a loose enough PRB combo to thumbstart balls in their rifles, the fit of which leave no material impression on the lead yet they get excellent accuracy...and far better than shooting a smoothbore.
 
There is nothing wrong with working up a load with a round ball made of lead alloys. The key phrase is " Working up a load ". The problem with alloys is keeping them the same, so that the size of the balls do not vary from one batch to another. Alloys shrink and expand at different rates, so " working up a load " is much more difficult to do, unless all you are doing is shooting soft ball size groups at 25 yds. Then it doesn't matter.

With a rifle, I always thought the point was to have a long gun that shot tighter groups than I can shoot with a smoothbore. If you are just shooting at short ranges, at large targets, you can do that with a smoothbore, and probably hit your targets shooting rocks and nails ! Buy a blunderbuss with the belled muzzle to make it easier to load the rocks and nails. Its will be a lot of fun to shoot, and you surely will hit anything you are aiming at out to 25 yds.

Hard cast balls do have a place- particularly when being used in a LARGE BORE gun to kill dangerous game, where penetration is paramount in importance, and expansion is less so, simply because the diameter of the ball is so large to start with. If you are hunting bear with a 10 ga. 8 ga. or 6 ga. gun, rifled or smooth, it would make sense to cast an alloy ball with tin in it. If you can leave the antimony out, the tin will make the ball harder, but it can still expand in tough flesh and bones. With antimony, it may be so brittle that pieces of the ball not only flatten, but crack off, reducing the weight of the projectile as it disintegrates, and reducing the amount of penetration accordingly.

We use pure lead for casting balls for the typical rifle because they are pretty regular in how they come out of the molds, both in diameter and weight, expand quickly even with low powered loads, to fill the grooves in the rifle, and expand well in game animals for a quick kill, even when fired with lighter loads. The only reason that we work up a higher velocity load to use with a PRB is to flatten the trajectory, so we are more likely to hit our target or game in the kill zone, regarless of the range out to 100 yds.

With modern guns, we increase velocity to flatten trajectory on already flat shooting guns, so that we can EXTEND the killing range of the gun to several hundred yards. We may never need that ability, or ever take a shot at long rang, but we want that option( or so we tell ourselves.) Because the small diameter bullets we shoot in modern guns must be traveling fast to have a double shock wave coming off the bullet when it hits game to cause massive hemorrhaging in the animal for a clean, quick kill, we stoke up those powder charges, and try to get every bit of velocity a particularly designed gun and action type will hold. We probably don't need all that speed and energy, and thw law of physics is not suspended for modern cartridge guns- things that leave the barrel faster slow faster- but we like to dream of owning a rifle that is capable of shooting game farther than we can see without having to adjust our sights. Its silly, but that is why we call this a sport. It allows us to be silly until we discover that we CAN'T change certain laws of physics no matter what we do.

Most people who began shooting modern guns before coming to Black Powder finally learn that what really attracts them to this sport is not the extra hunting season, but the quiet slow deliberation which is necessary to load these guns to get the most accuracy out of them. There are lots of little things to learn that are each important in themselves before you get the best accuracy with Black powder guns. Its a challenge to learn them, and when you put it all together, you find out that you are a much better hunter, and shooter- even going back and shooting cartridge guns- after you have mastered a black powder rifle.
 
That may be true wise one, but I said the BEST accuracy :hatsoff:

rabbit03
 

Latest posts

Back
Top