Why the hatred for CVA?

[ohio ramrod]

Many people dislike CVA,s for any of the following reasons. Most parts are made in Spain,many earlier guns had quality control problems, both with constrictions in the barrels and poor threads in the lock components, lock tumblers that were soft and had a poor fit with the sear., lack of being historically correct, and probably the strongest reason of all many "beginners " with these "poor quality " CVA,s out shot experienced shooters with custom made guns! :surrender: :surrender:

 

[RickD]

I really find it odd you havent posted one topic on a rifle you built when two years ago your very first post on here you were asking about rifle kits as you were new to muzzleloading..I also find it amazing you have a CVA rifle that will out shoot your magical Ithaca rifle that if I remember right you shoot groups the size of your hand at 250 to 300 yards..

 

[rabjr]

If someone wasn't living through those days when CVA was freshly on the market, and saw all the problems first hand, you simply cannot understand the strong feelings that people have about those guns and that company.

I saw it at my gun club, as newbies showed up with both factory and kit CVA rifles that had all the problems. Thankfully, we had a few of the good ones, and the owners of those rifles were able to help the newbies fix theirs. But a lot of sweat, time, and money was spent fixing guns that should never left the factory in that condition, and lots of them were traded or sold so that the owner could buy a better gun.

The only complaint I have not heard about those early guns was the quality of the barrel.

The guns were accurate, if you could get all the rest of the parts to work to get it to fire! :shocked2: :hatsoff:

I don't know about you guys Paul but I saw an awful lot of broken triggers and hammers that looked like they were actually made from White metal. :shake: Not to mention inside of locks that were a mess.

I hear a lot about how lucky we were to have them because they started so many people in this hobby but I have to wonder how many walked away from this hobby in frustration because of this company.

 

[J.D.]

I really find it odd you havent posted one topic on a rifle you built when two years ago your very first post on here you were asking about rifle kits as you were new to muzzleloading..I also find it amazing you have a CVA rifle that will out shoot your magical Ithaca rifle that if I remember right you shoot groups the size of your hand at 250 to 300 yards..

Don't know about shooting hand size groups at long range,nor do I remember him claiming any such thing. Moreover he has posted about some of his builds; Just to keep the record straight.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/222469/post/584637/hl//fromsearch/1/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/222530/post/585366/hl//fromsearch/1/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/222658/post/586932/hl//fromsearch/1/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/222766/post/588186/hl//fromsearch/1/

 

I really find it odd you havent posted one topic on a rifle you built when two years ago your very first post on here you were asking about rifle kits as you were new to muzzleloading..I also find it amazing you have a CVA rifle that will out shoot your magical Ithaca rifle that if I remember right you shoot groups the size of your hand at 250 to 300 yards..

I find it odd that you are using this thread to pick a personal fight. It's about CVA, remember?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Please let's not turn this discussion personal.

Stick to the original topic, please.

 

[RickD]

Not a problem

 

[DrLaw]

YG, following the lead of Claude in getting this back on topic, imho, it is a matter of personal preference, just as you will find with anything.
Ford-Chevy debates rage. Honda-Harley debates rage, etc... Name it, and you will find somebody arguing for or against.

As many here have said, CVA is an entry level gun for some, a lifetime gun for others. It all boils down to what YOU like, and not what anybody else TELLS you to like.

I own a Pedersoli Jager. I know it is not historically accurate, but it is shootably accurate, and I know I like it. I also have some Uberti pistols and one Pietta. I happen to like the Uberti's better than the Pietta, but the Pietta is strong and shoots good. Personal preference.

Don't let anybody make up your mind for you but you. (Though reading reviews about things does help) In the long run, what you get to shoot is your responsibility. In the longer run, have fun however you are doing it, and share the shooting sports with those who don't know how much fun it is! :grin:

The Doc is out now. :hatsoff:

 

[Trot]

Hate is a strong word, I have a CVA mountain rifle and a Frontier rifle. I dislike both of them, but not hate. If they were percussion, they might be adequate, not terribly accurate but not too bad. In flintlock they are an exercise in frustration, and the sights are poorly designed. I have nothing against cheap guns if they work like they are supposed to. I have a Cabela's Hawken and a Lyman Trade rifle and am very happy with both of them.

 

[BadHorse]

I really find it odd you havent posted one topic on a rifle you built when two years ago your very first post on here you were asking about rifle kits as you were new to muzzleloading..I also find it amazing you have a CVA rifle that will out shoot your magical Ithaca rifle that if I remember right you shoot groups the size of your hand at 250 to 300 yards..

your memory sucks. i dont have a cva that will out shoot anything, i gave mine away years ago and wont shoot them, what i find amazing is your insistance any time i post you have to try and find a reason to argue. and its manure like this why i dont post my builds here. yeah there are a couple of threads from me. but im sick of rocket scientists like rickd. the no nothing do nothing types

 

[Zonie]

Others have mentioned that the early CVA guns left a lot to be wished for but, I have only seen one poster that actually could be said to "hate" CVA guns.

I have owned several and still own a CVA Derringer although I admit I don't shoot it regularly.

My only complaints about the early CVA rifles was the lock, and I'm speaking of the early 1970 guns.

The locks in these were poorly made and poorly designed.

Their chief design flaws was the lockplates were soft steel and the tumblers did not have a bridal to support the outer end of them.

Without this support the one journal where the tumbler passes thru the lockplate would rapidly wear causing the tumbler to become loose in the hole. This caused the sear to bear unevenly in the full cock notch and lead to early failures.
This was common on both the percussion and flintlock locks.

On the flintlocks the frizzens were usually poorly hardened and because of the cock design they usually "bashed" the flints causing short flint life. This last comment still applies to some of the flintlocks produced by all makers.

On the percussion guns, the design of the breech and drum often caused mis-fires but, here again that problem still exists on many of the factory guns made in Spain and Italy today.

The wood that the stocks were made from was beech and although it was fairly durable, if you wanted to change the color by staining it you were in trouble because that wood doesn't take stains well.
The barrels were never a problem and they often shot as well as any other muzzleloading barrel. In fact, good shooters will have no problem getting good groups when they are shooting CVA rifles if they take the time to find out which powder/ball/patch loads work best in them.

If you've gotten this far, you can see that I don't hate CVA's and I have always considered them to be fairly good, low cost guns that serve to introduce folks to the world of muzzleloading.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Rebuttal noted. That ends the personal comments for this discussion.

 

[BadHorse]

Rebuttal noted. That ends the personal comments for this discussion.

no worries claude, im done. i do apologize that it got derailed like this.

 

[ebiggs1]

No one hates 'em, except for the folks who get bad ones.

The problem comes in when someone asks what time period their brand spankin' new CVA fits into and the owner and pinhead supporters, to borrow a Brooksism, get all upset when the response is 1970s, 'cause that doesn't fit their perception of the way things should be...what they want to believe.

In addition the quality of the CVA, Traditions, etal, can be pretty spotty. Some folks love 'em, and those who get bad ones do hate 'em. Other than that, it's your gun. Shoot it in good health.

God bless

Mr. J.D., I have never asked where my rifle fits into in a historic aspect and I get the same treatment.
God bless, you too.

 

[Bill Hall]

Swampy said: I hear a lot about how lucky we were to have them because they started so many people in this hobby but I have to wonder how many walked away from this hobby in frustration because of this company.[/quote]

Swampy, you beat me to it. Back in the day, the two main brands were T/C and CVA. I started out with a T/C kit rifle, as did one of my friends shortly thereafter. The rest of the gang went the CVA route, mostly due to the price difference and ignorance. I can't tell you how many times I heard comments like "What the h....?" or "Oh c'mon! What now?" when those cheap little CVA's refused to work. I can't say that it turned them off on muzzleloading completely, but I can imagine a guy getting started by himself, and having all the same problems, and thinking "This muzzleloading thing sucks", never to return.

My brother owned a CVA mountain rifle, and I gotta say, it was super accurate, that is, when it fired. He was constantly handing it to me to get it going again and any fix I did on it didn't last long. The last time I told him to ditch it and get something better, he just told me to keep it. I couldn't figure out what to do with it. It was stolen shortly after that, so, problem solved.

I think part of the reason why CVA is disliked so much is that many of us have a strong respect, and expectation, for quality items. Let me try to make an analogy. I know nothing about golf, but I am sure some of you guys are very serious about the sport. Imagine being on the course and you see a newcomer with a brand new set of clubs, some of which have loose grips, some are slightly bent, the balance sucks, wood is split, etc. But the brand is something catchy like "XTP SHOOTRITE", made in Taiwan. I'll bet just seeing those clubs would send some of you "high and to the right"! You may feel compelled to tell the young golf jedi to throw those away and start with a decent set of good clubs, rather than see him get turned off on the sport due poor quality equiptment. That's how we feel about CVA.

Another thought that I think hasn't been mentioned yet. Why would replacement items, especially locks, be so popular for a firearm that wasn't a piece of manure?

Myself, I like quality. I'm just funny that way. Bill.

 

[tg]

Walks Alone, what kind of gun did you use for re-enacting?

 

[FishDFly]

So I know that many of you do not like CVA rifles at all and I have to wonder why? Granted their barrels are made in spain, but i would have to think that for the most part a gunsmith in the 18th century wouldnt be able to produce as fine of a barrel as a manufacturer in the 21st century PURELY because of the availiability of materials. ALSO, my .54 is a CVA that I built from a kit with serial numbers from 1985 and that barrel was still made in spain. So i still have to ask why the hate? and what problems have YOU had with CVA rifles

YoungGunner,

For most folks it's snob appeal that they dislike CVA. Years ago those who owned a T/C looked down on those who owned a CVA. Kind of like today, those who own T/C or Lyman are looked down on by those who own a semi-custom or custom made rifle.

When I was in the service in 1973, I found a copy of Muzzle Blasts and was fascinated by muzzle loaders and the thought of going to Friendship some day.

I had one stripe in the Air Force and barely making ends meet when I bought a CVA kit which took me some time to get the money for. I built the kit and learned a lot and learned that the kit was not the greatest in the way of parts. But I learned to shoot it and tinker with it to make it work.

From my start with a CVA kit in 1973 I have managed to make it to Friendship and to Phoenix where I shoot pistols. Do I hate CVA, no a CVA was a start on a long jounrey.

That first rifle hangs above my bedroom door at my country place, I do not hate it, it brings back fond memories. I have had it longer than I did my first wife.

The CVA kit was all that I could afford and I was and am now, damn proud to own it, knowing what I did to afford it and build it. Some of us are just working folks. We afford what we can, as we go along in life. A working man offers not apologies to what he can afford.

RDE

 

[lonehunter]

:hatsoff:

 

[Old Salt]

I have a CVA barrel built on a Sitting Fox flintlock kit that shoots very well. The lock is a Chambers. Given the chance to do it over I would only change the CVA breech configuration.

That said once I learned the quirks of the gun it can be used with very good reliability and accuracy.

Salt

 

[8905c]

Bretwalda -

It is interesting that you mentioned a Bee from Zanesville assisting you with your CVA problems. I assume this was Larry Bee, a very knowledgeable gunsmith from the Zanesville area. Unfortunately, Larry passed away about 1-2 years ago. A super nice guy with a wealth of knowledge about ML rifles. Larry left a large void in the ML community. I know of many stories about Larry that are much like yours, helping others with ML problems.
8905c