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George

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Reading the gun literature of the 18th century, I’m frequently struck by how many of the topics discussed on TMF and similar groups are essentially the same ones being discussed back then. A lot of what they talked about is surprisingly modern in its conclusions, they had a lot of stuff figured out correctly. Not so with some of it, though, and it’s rather amazing how many of those same topics are still being discussed, today, and how many of their errors have come down to us intact after 200-300 years and are still being hotly debated. There is a large body of “knowledge” about how our guns work which is just plain wrong, but it persists beyond all reason. Considering how much has been learned since those days, how far the science of ballistics has advanced and how much evidence contrary to those old beliefs has accumulated, that’s hard to understand.

How is it that we can maintain a mistaken belief in the face of later, better evidence? Why is it so difficult for us to fold the correct information into our belief system? People who study these things say it’s because that’s the way our brains work, and that it happens to all of us to a greater or lesser degree. It’s an old question, and many people have tried to answer it. Tolstoy said, "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."

This persistence of wrong information over long periods of time fascinates me, and it was recently brought to mind by an amazing example I ran across. This isn’t directly related to our guns, but illustrates how efficiently errors can be passed along over long intervals of time.

In his 1709 book, _A New Voyage to Carolina; Containing the Exact Description and Natural History of That Country: Together with the Present State Thereof. And A Journal of a Thousand Miles, Travel'd Thro' Several Nations of Indians. Giving a Particular Account of Their Customs, Manners, &c._, by John Lawson, Gent. Surveyor-General of North Carolina, Lawson said:

“Of the Horn-Snakes I never saw but two, that I remember. They are like the Rattle-Snake in Colour, but rather lighter. They hiss exactly like a Goose, when any thing approaches them. They strike at their Enemy with their Tail, and kill whatsoever they wound with it, which is arm'd at the End with a horny Substance, like a Cock's Spur. This is their Weapon. I have heard it credibly reported, by those who said they were Eye-Witnesses, that a small Locust-Tree, about the Thickness of a Man's Arm, being struck by one of these Snakes, at Ten a Clock in the Morning, then verdant and flourishing, at four in the Afternoon was dead, and the Leaves red and wither'd. Doubtless, be it how it will, they are very venomous. I think, the Indians do not pretend to cure their Wound.

Almost 70 years later, Nicholas Cresswell, an educated young Englishman, wrote in his journal in Leesburg, Virginia:

“Tuesday, June 4th, 1776. Dined at Mr. Mason's, where I saw the part of a Horned Snakeskin about 5 foot long. This is the most venomous Snake that is known. It is covered with scales like a fish, Black and white on the back, the belly white with a small hair in its tail like a cockspur from whence it takes its name. It does not crawl on its belly like other snakes, but tumbles tail over head and by that means strikes its Horn into its enemy, which is of such a poisonous nature it is instant death. I have been informed by several credible persons, some of them offers to swear, that if it strikes its horn into a tree in full leaf it withers and dies in twenty-four hours. I never saw this, but have not the least reason to doubt the truth of it. They had cut the head off this snake. They tell me it had small horns and was about 9 foot long. When they had disabled it, it roared like a Calf.”

The German physician Johann David Schoepf, chief surgeon of the Ansbach troops fighting for Britain, said in his book, _Travels in the Confederation (1783-1784)_ :

“In the mountains one hears much now and again of a Horn or Thorntail-snake which has at the end of its tail a horny sting with which it can not only give a man and beasts fatally poisonous wounds, but can kill trees struck by its sting. But in regard to this I have no reliable evidence.”

Nearly 200 years after that, in the Foxfire Book, southern Appalachian mountains of Georgia, about 1970, Lon Reid discussed hoop snakes:

“They’s just like hoop on a barrel just twisted over and rolled at’y’. Some folks calls ”˜em a horn snake. They cling by the’ end of their tail just as hard as they can be, and then they stick that tail in th’ air and that’s th’ reason they roll. My daddy said one o’them old hoop snakes was a’rollin’ after some man, and it was just nearly up with him. Said this fella’ jumped behind a big honey locust, and said that snake just turned over and hit it with his tail, y’know. That’s what they hit y’with---that horn. He said that big old locust tree was wilted before twelve o’clock, That could hit a man and kill him dead as a hammer.
“My brother said he killed one’r two up yonder where he lives. He said their tail was as hard as it could be all over th’ end. They roll after y’.”

Notice the persistent, detailed similarity of the tales, horned tail, rolling instead of crawling, roaring/hissing, trees killed in hours, eye witness accounts, and the attempts to assure the validity of the tale by reference to reliable, creditable sources, father, brother, those willing to swear, eyewitnesses, and in Lawson’s case, personal accounts of a sort.

Lack of background knowledge and unfamiliarity with basic physics seems a common thread among those who believe strange things about our guns. That, and an ability to believe the unbelievable”¦ if you are going to believe rifles are more accurate than smoothbores because the spin of the rifle bullet prevents the demon which rides bullets and steers them off course from hanging on, first you must be able to believe in demons. To paraphrase an old saw, it must be believed in order to be seen.

There is a valuable warning to us in this. Wrong information can be preserved down through the years, centuries, with just as much validity as the correct. The fact that a belief is old does not necessarily make it right, and we have to work hard at separating the grain from the chaff. We do, don’t we?

And the horned snake will get’cha if you don’t watch out.

Spence
 
Interesting that you bring up the horned snake. As a person who has always liked snakes and studied them as a hobby for more than 40 years, I can attest to the fact that people will believe what they want to about snakes, or at least what their dad, uncle, grandfather, etc, told them, and no amount of logic or evidence will change their minds.

Guns may be the same thing, whatever they were told first or read about first is what they are going to believe.
 
when my kids were small, one of them came to me with some ridiculous story, and when I told her that this was a complete fantasy and in no way true, she was crestfallen and complained that she had read it in the paper, so it must be true.

lightbulb moment!!

"All this tells you is that the person saying this lie has access to a printing press and i don't, and that's why people will believe her and not me."

and thus, another skeptic was created: a curmudgeon- in- training if you will.

what is passed down seems to increase in credibility with the increase in the passage of time between the incident and the telling. a curious social phenomena which appears nearly universal across many different cultures.

go figure...
 
I have irrefutable proof that the spinning of a ball does not cause the demon to fall off. Of course, it is quite possible that the demons in my ball bag are simply more tenacious than the average demon. Either that or the twist rate of my barrel needs to be faster. In either case, the little b***ard does not fall off my patched balls.......and that's a fact! :haha:
 
There are a great many things in general acceptance that have been proven false by science, yet some cling to them as they would to a life preserver after a ship-wreck.
 
Well then there are the situation where one needs to look into what fostered the belief if it can be ascertained.

There have also been "scientific" debunking of myths that were not quite as near to the legend or myth as they need to be to claim a "debunk".

For example some of the reports of ignition speeds, using modern barreled guns (thinner walls needed) and modern metals in the locks, and modern made powder....how come nobody either a) simply tested the originals to see if there was something in the reports or b) reproduced test platforms from the same grade of metals using the same production techniques? c) produced powder using the purification applications of the time period and then tested that?

Might not make a dif...might make a big dif....

Might give credence as to why they believed what they did back then??

:hmm:

LD
 
A couple more to throw on the fire....

1. Bank your prime away from the vent for faster ignition.
2. A flintlock can fire while the hammer is on the way down, thus making it faster than a cap.
 
3. dimpled balls in a smoothbore are more accurate than smooth ones.

4. the frizzen spring only needs enough preassure to keep the powder from falling out.

5. The tail (frizzen stop) on the frizzen is only a decoration.

6. (my favorite..)when pruchasing a trade gun the Natives had to stack plews up equal to the length of the gun.

7. silk patch will give you an extra 40 yards. (yes, I have heard this from otherwise credible people but they heard it somewhere and believe it.) (remember the scene from Last of the Mohecans?)
 
colorado clyde said:
Knowledge is not a belief, an answer, or a question.
It is about asking the right questions.
:thumbsup:


And then knowing what to do with that knowledge



William Alexander
 
In response to Tinker2

Quote:

And then knowing what to do with that knowledge

=Wisdom

Well, dang clyde, with approximately 3.6568627450980392156862745098039 posts per day you surely have a corner on all that wisdom! :rotf:
 
My wife's grandfather lived into his 90s and told me about seeing hoop snakes as a boy, that they grabbed their tail in their mouth and rolled along like a hoop. This was 20 or more years ago and he said he "hadn't seen any lately." graybeard
 
Well I wouldn't elevate it to part of my, or anybody elses, "belief system" but I know Horn Snakes are real. That they roll. And are very venomous.

Luckily, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

Only custom-made guns owned by senior citizens now on a fixed income are reproduction Hawkens.

India-made guns are better than European ones, authentically built by expert craftsmen exactly like the originals, and I just didn't WANT to spend more money.

Only one of a couple of Master Gunsmiths in The Americas at any given time could have put a sling on a Trade Gun though no-one ever had such a thing.

Grits is brain food.
 
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