Will a lead ball .010 under bore size obturate to

[Leatherbark]

Thanks for all the replies..........I have been tinkering with loads for my Jackie Brown Smoothbore for a month now....Been out three times... Not enough data to make a final statement on whats best yet,but I did feel the .610 Swaged balls fired with 70gr.of 3fg and loaded with a nitro wad,crisco lubed cushion wad,and an overshot wad to hold the bare ball in,shot very well........this load printed under 2 inches at 25 yards,well centered with two holes touching........The eight inch three shot group at 100 yards was fired with a lot of mirage from the heat of firing and a very hot and humid day......so it could have been better or worse maybe my next time out as I havent fired this thing enough yet,but I do love it and I have no time for my other rifled guns right now.LOL.........I was wondering if on firing the bare ball goes down the barrel ,skipping off one side of the barrel to the next........and the size of the group depending on which side of the barrel the ball bounced off of right before exiting the bore? In other words, I'm wondering if a ball comes out of an unrifled barrel perfectly straight and not spinning,would external factors (wind,etc)make it print wider than a spinning ball fired from a rifled barrel?.............I'm curious as to whether rifling spins the ball only to make it come out of the barrel more consistant and external factors make no difference as to the ball spinning or not?.......Elongated bullets not included...................Bob

 

[TFoley]

The reasons you cite are exactly those that jusify the invention and use of rifling. Over longer ranges, say 150 yards or more, the rifled weapon has the edge on a smooth-bore when shooting ball, let alone elongated projectiles of any kind. Please ignore the use of smooth-bore tank artillery - THOSE projectiles are stablilised in flight by either large fins [HEAT] or very small ones [FSDS-LRP]. They are also moving quite a bit quicker - even the slow-coach HEP or HEAT is making around 1800 fps -
the FSDS-LRP, on the other hand, is coming out of the muzzle at around 6500 fps, or more, with our version in Challenger 2. Shots at two, three or four km all sound the same -crash/clang.

Even a spinning ball will be more accurate than on non-spinning ball at the longer ranges.

tac :grey:

 

[roundball]

I'm curious as to whether rifling spins the ball only to make it come out of the barrel more consistant and external factors make no difference as to the ball spinning or not?.......Elongated bullets not included.

I believe consistency from rifling is the initial benefit...even in a smoothbore I'm certain there is some exit spin variations occuring...and a probable example is that the high quality trap and skeet shotgun barrels (smooth) have "straight rifling grooves" in them...to prevent the load from developing any rotation as it travels up the bore, which would affect the repeatability of shot patterns, etc.

As far as spin minimizing the effects of wind, I can see that being the case with a spinning elongated bullet (like a football) as it would hold it's speed better, get to the target sooner, less affected by wind, etc...but since we're discussing only round spheres, I'm not sure that it would...also possibly supported by the fact that RB twists are slower than most everything else = less spin.


Probably the biggest benefit to a spinning RB would be to minimize / offset the effects of a ball who's weight might be slightly off center.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I would refer you again to the Lyman Blackpowder handbook or absolutely any other reference book on the subject. ALL agree that for a patched ball to shoot accuratly the patch and ball combination must fit the bore tightly enough that the ball will show marks from the rifling and YOU stand alone in disputing this very obvious fact.
Of course the patch rotates with the rifling! And if the patch is to transfer that rotation to the ball it must be a tight fit, so tight as to show depressions from the lands on the circumference of the ball. Yes, it is the patch that is pressed into the lead but it is the lands of the rifling which presses the patch into the lead. A tight patch and ball combo will also show faint patch veave marks over the grooves.
That the ball must engage the rifling to shoot accuratly is an undisputed fact. Undisputed except by you. You must have truly magical abilities to get even marginal accuracy from a ball that is unmarked by the rifling, I'm sure no one else has ever accomplished such a feat!

 

[musketman]

I would refer you again to the Lyman Blackpowder handbook or absolutely any other reference book on the subject. ALL agree that for a patched ball to shoot accuratly the patch and ball combination must fit the bore tightly enough that the ball will show marks from the rifling and YOU stand alone in disputing this very obvious fact.
Of course the patch rotates with the rifling! And if the patch is to transfer that rotation to the ball it must be a tight fit, so tight as to show depressions from the lands on the circumference of the ball. Yes, it is the patch that is pressed into the lead but it is the lands of the rifling which presses the patch into the lead. A tight patch and ball combo will also show faint patch veave marks over the grooves.
That the ball must engage the rifling to shoot accuratly is an undisputed fact.

Is this the picture you refer to?

You must have truly magical abilities to get even marginal accuracy from a ball that is unmarked by the rifling, I'm sure no one else has ever accomplished such a feat!

Nope, not hard at all with smoothbores, course they don't shoot as tight as the rifled barrels...

 

[roundball]

I would refer you again to the Lyman Blackpowder handbook or absolutely any other reference book on the subject. ALL agree that for a patched ball to shoot accuratly the patch and ball combination must fit the bore tightly enough that the ball will show marks from the rifling and YOU stand alone in disputing this very obvious fact.
Of course the patch rotates with the rifling! And if the patch is to transfer that rotation to the ball it must be a tight fit, so tight as to show depressions from the lands on the circumference of the ball. Yes, it is the patch that is pressed into the lead but it is the lands of the rifling which presses the patch into the lead. A tight patch and ball combo will also show faint patch veave marks over the grooves.
That the ball must engage the rifling to shoot accuratly is an undisputed fact. Undisputed except by you. You must have truly magical abilities to get even marginal accuracy from a ball that is unmarked by the rifling, I'm sure no one else has ever accomplished such a feat!

Joe... :relax:...your response in a little strong...we're just discussing a topic...I didn't happen to blindly accept what was posted and offerred another opinion, that's all.

In fact, I used words like "I'm not convinced", or "I believe", etc, so it was clear they were my personal opinions...I repeat, I've never seen rifling marks on any round ball I've shot and recovered.

I certainly have heard of and agree with the notion that the tightest possible fitting patch/ball combination would probably be even more accurate...and in that case, patch weave marks may very well get pressed into a ball if one was that tight, but I don't think that's the typical of what is used by 99.9% of the general muzzleloader population, and can't be used to imply, that if weave marks don't appear on a ball then a rifle will be inaccurate.

I use nominal industry sized balls like .440/.490/.530/.570 from Hornady, in a variety of TC barrels with .018" prelubed pillow ticking...and have never seen weave marks or rifling marks on any ball I've recovered...If I used bore sized balls maybe I would but I don't.

I'm sorry if my experience causes you agitation, but they are my experiences...and, all components plus the TC mass produced barrels are pretty nominal size stuff in the industry so I'd also be surprised if I was the only one who would have experienced that...

eace:

 

[musketman]

Let us resume this patch/rifling mark topic in the general muzzleloading section, it is worth continuing...

Remember, this thread is about an unpatched roundball in a smoothbore...

 

[CoyoteJoe]

You are SO RIGHT Musketman, this post was about smoothbores. I do apologize. Back to smoothbores.
Newton's laws of motion state that an object in motion tends to remain in motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force. If the ball exits a smoothbore muzzle on a straight line to the target it will follow that straight line untill the outside force of air resistance begins to deflect it. Thus smoothbores may be quite accurate at short range but the accuracy falls off as range increases.
Try this, take two pencils and press their erasers togather in a straight line. You will notice that so long as they remain straight you can press them rather tightly, but once they take on even a very slight angle they want to increase that angle to the extreme.
If one pencil represents the ball on a straight path and the other represents air resistance you see what happpens with a smoothbore. As Newton stated, the ball will fly straight for some distance but once air resistance bends its' path ever so slightly it begins to "hook" more and more. Thus you may see a 2" group at 50 yards opening to 12" or more at 100.
Rifling provides gyroscopic stability. If a ball exits the muzzle of a 1-48 twist barrel at 1600fps, it is spinning at 24,000 rpms and just like a toy gyroscope it resists being moved. You can feel this resistance to movement while holding a dremel tool. Thus, the spread of shots from a rifle tends to be angular, twice as large at twice the range (not really, but close enough) while the spread from a smoothbore is more trumpet shaped.
I'll be shooting a smoothbore against rifles at our next rendezvous and feel I'll do OK because all shots will be at 25 yards. If they included some shots beyond 50 yards I'd be at a decided handicap with a smoothbore.-- :imo:

 

[Leatherbark]

Good analogy and clarification Coyote Joe.......I've been shooting rifleguns too long.........I figure I'll do all my practicing with the 20 ga. at 25,50,and 75 yards.......Heck the last three deer I've taken were well under 50 yards..................Bob

 

[tg]

"Undisputed except by you. You must have truly magical abilities to get even marginal accuracy from a ball that is unmarked by the rifling, I'm sure no one else has ever accomplished such a feat! "

I have often shot light/medium loads with a rather loose patch and ball combo with very accurae resultsas as long as the ball spins it will work I have seen no evidence that one must use such a tight load as to make marks on the ball with the weave of the patch, as the load of powder increases a tighter combo may be an advantage. There are many things writen in the manuals of ML lore that may not be wholey true, much like the percived obturation of Uranus which is an illusion caused by the refraction of light in the Earths atmosphere.

 

[roundball]

".....I have seen no evidence that one must use such a tight load as to make marks on the ball with the weave of the patch....."

Right...the .45cal Flinter in this photo lets me thumbstart a Hornady .440 in an .018" pillow ticking patch...a stout load of 90grns Goex 3F left the ball bulging out under the hide on the far side...not a mark on the ball anywhere.

 

[Java Man]

Nice deer RB, and very nice shot placement. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Nice deer RB, and very nice shot placement. :thumbsup:

A young small 6...but the season was almost over, I had a buck tag left, a flintlock in my hands, and I knew a needy family that would be delighted to have him.

 

[SKS_madman]

Nice deer RB, and very nice shot placement. :thumbsup:

A young small 6...but the season was almost over, I had a buck tag left, a flintlock in my hands, and I knew a needy family that would be delighted to have him.

Your a good man, RB. :: :RO: