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Will I have enough penetration ???

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Skychief

69 Cal.
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Messages
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Location
The hills of Southern Indiana
I patterned my 17 1/2 gauge smoothbore musket today. I found that 55 grains 2f and 1 1/4 oz. of 6 shot gave the best patterns for turkey hunting. Do any of you happen to know what velocity should be produced with this loading? Will I have enough penetration @ 20 yards to kill a gobbler quickly? BTW, @ 20 yards I averaged 10-12 pellets in the neck/head area of the fine printable turkey targets mentioned on this site. Penny for your thoughts about power/penetration at 20 yards please. I forgot to shoot a coffee can at end of the shooting today and already have the old gal cleaned up! Thanks much! Skychief.
 
Skychief said:
I patterned my 17 1/2 gauge smoothbore musket today. I found that 55 grains 2f and 1 1/4 oz. of 6 shot gave the best patterns for turkey hunting. Do any of you happen to know what velocity should be produced with this loading? Will I have enough penetration @ 20 yards to kill a gobbler quickly? BTW, @ 20 yards I averaged 10-12 pellets in the neck/head area of the fine printable turkey targets mentioned on this site. Penny for your thoughts about power/penetration at 20 yards please. I forgot to shoot a coffee can at end of the shooting today and already have the old gal cleaned up! Thanks much! Skychief.
Personally I'd have gone the other way...I would have kept the powder charge up higher an added another 1/8oz of shot or so...it'll probably still penetrate at only 20yards but 55grns of 2F is not much of a powder charge in a bore with that much volume...I use 80grns Goex 3F in my .62cal/.20ga and it's not even a hot load.

But the only way you'll know for sure is to run your own tests with some heavy metal cans like from pork & beans, tuna, etc...just keep setting a new can another 5 yards further away until you no longer punch through it, then you'll know your max range is behind you.
 
Thanks for the reply Roundball! I kept the charge this light as the musket is a true Civil War era gun. On another thread, I have described that it is far from pristine. Hence, the reluctance to load it heavier. I tried many combinations and found this one to pattern best. I understand you to think penetration should be okay @ 20 yards or closer. Is this right? Any ideas as to muzzle velocity with this load? Thanks much everybody! Skychief.
 
Like Roundball suggests, setup a can at 20 yards and shoot it. See if the pellets penetrate it. If so, you should be fine at that yardage.
 
Skychief said:
Any ideas as to muzzle velocity with this load?

Well, how good are you at "extrapolation" ? :grin:
Lyman BP Handbook as a Reference:

.20ga (not the larger volume .17ga bore)
68grns 2F (not 55grns)
1+1/8oz shot (not heavier 1+1/4oiz)
MV is 898, call it 900fps.
================================================
So in a larger .17ga bore volume there would be less pressure, even with 68grns, to say nothing of only 55grns.

1+1/4oz is a heavier payload than 1+1/8oz and would hold velocity down some.

My S.W.A.G. on your velocity would be 700-750fps...no science whatsoever...just considering a larger bore volume = less pressure to begin with and using 20% less powder in that larger volume, and a 10% heavier payload.

If someone stood directly behind you I belive the shot charge could be seen...sharp eyes do it on the skeet ranges and their velocity is 1100fps.

But other than just knowing the information for information sake, none of it matters for your turkey hunt...if you find out what your max yardage is regarding penetration, have the ability to judge that distance in the woods, and then have the ability to get a Tom to cross that yardage threshold, you got yourself a turkey!
:thumbsup:
 
You can shoot at any metal can, but NOT ALUMINUM, for your testing. Coffee, vegetable or fruit cans, juice cans-- anything made of steel and coated in tin or some other flashing will give similar results. Cat food and dog food cans work, too.

Because your shotgun is an " odd " gauge, there just is not going to be any data for that gauge. There are too many variables, and information you have not shared with us, for any of us to do anything more than make a guess.

I gave you, earlier, my estimate on velocity ranges and powder and shot loads to use.

I show a 2 1/2 dram(69 grain) powder charge of FFg Goex BP with 1 oz. of shot to give MV of 1014 fps. according to the Hodgdon Reloading manual. That is considered a MEDIUM load in a 16 gauge, and a HEAVY load in a 20 gauge, which is smaller in diameter. It represents a fair AVERAGE load for your gauge, which falls between the 16 and 20 gauge shotguns. NO?

Now, in a classic work by Greener, published in the 1870s or 80s, titled," The Gun and its Development", he lists the following velocities for the same load- 2 1/2 Drams and 1 oz. of shot as follows:

MV( 5 yds) 1039 ( close enough to the Hodgdon data for our purposes.)
5 yd; = 1039 fps.
10 yd: = 1022 fps.
15 yd: = 1001 fps.
20 yd: = 979 fps.
25 yd: = 951 fps.
30 yd: = 929 fps.
35 yd: = 904 fps.

You can see, by plotting these numbers on a graph, that you are losing about 22 fps every 5 yards. Use 25 fps. as an average, and to simplify calculations, ie, every 20 yards, you lose 100 fps.

Now, pellet energy is something else. The only place I have seen pellet energy figures is in the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual. You can extrapolate drop in pellet energy from the tables for different size shot pellets, by comparing the fastest, and slowest load show for each size pellet.

#6 shot, which is what you are using, has data for a MV of 1330 fps. as the fastest, and 1135 fps. as the slowests.

Here is the data for the high and low:
__________________
Highest load:

MV. /20yds /40 yds
1330 fps /970 fps /760 fps

Pellet energy in ft. lbs.

Muzzle: /20 yds. /40 yds
7.62 /4.05 /2.52
__________________

Lowest load:

MV. /20 yds /40 yds
1135 /860 fps /695 fps


Pellet Energy in Ft. lbs.

Muzzle: /20 yds /40 yds
5.55 / 3.19 / 2.08

_____________________

Looking at the percentage of energy lost at 20 and 40 yards over what was at the muzzle, its clear that you are going to see a pellet energy loss at 20 yards of between 40 and 50% of the energy at the muzzle. At 40 yards, you lose 60% of the energy that you had at the muzzle. These percentages do get worse for small sized shot pellets, and better for larger sized shot pellets, simply because the larger diameter of a #2, or #4 shot pellet gives the pellet a greater Ballistic's Coefficient.

If you subtract 25% of the velocity of a load beginning at 1014 fps MV, you get 760 fps for your estimated 20 yard velocity.

Pellet energy for a #6 pellet traveling at 760 fps. is show on the table as 2.49 ft. lbs. At 40 yards, the pellet is traveling 628 fps, and has a retained Pellet energy of only 1.68 ft lbs.

Extrapolating data a bit, at 30 yards, your pellet energy is about 2.08 ft. lbs.
_____________________
By comparison, A #5 pellet, at 760 fps has 3.30 ft lbs. of energy; at 628 fps., it retains 2.23 ft lbs. of energy.
_____________________

Although birds have been killed with just one pellet hitting the brain, you usually want a margin of error of 1.5 ft. lbs. per pound of bird. The average Pheasant Rooster rarely goes 4 lbs, and 6 pellet hits will insure a clean kill most of the time. Again, I have seen pheasants taken down with just one pellet hitting them, and at extremely long yardage.

A turkey is obviously considerably heavier than a pheasant. The difference is that with Pheasants, you are shooting at a moving target, and hitting the entire body, hoping to drive a pellet into vital organs, or to shock the bird to death with multiple hits. With The turkey, you are shooting at a standing target MOST OF THE TIME, and the feathers on the bird are darn near armour plating, making it difficult to put any pellets through them to get into the vital organs. The Head and Neck of the turkey therefore are the TARGET.

If you can put 12 pellets on the bird's neck and head at a known distance, I think you can be assured you will kill the bird. I have seen large 25 lb. Wild turkey killed with as few as 6 hits in the neck and head, where #6 shot was used, but the yardage was only 20 yards.

* At that distance, the pellet has 2.5 ft. lbs. of energy, so the neck and head were hit with 18 ft. lbs. of energy. All it took was one of those pellets to reach the spine, or brain, and death was instantaneous. The hunter was surprised that so few pellets hit the head and neck, BTW. He had practiced his shooting at turkey targets for weeks before the hunt, and expected more than 15 hits or more, on the head and neck at that distance based on his targets.

Roundball's Advice to use life-size paper Turkey targets is excellent, and realistic. Most guns can be made to shoot a load that can put a pattern out dense enough to put pellets on the small area that is the neck and head, at some yardage. But, many shooters cannot consistently point their guns the same way, shot for shot, and if the pattern is not centered, as it probably is at the range, you can miss the turkey, or simply cripple it, only to see it fly or run off to die somewhere you can find it.

Practice your shooting with your turkey loads. A copy machine can be used to print out dozens of the targets to use at the range, so you can shoot from a variety of positions, and distances, to learn what YOU have to do to get the shot pattern on target. I am a huge fan of hunters using guns with rear sights for this kind of hunting, simply because it eliminates much of the human error that can only lead to crippled and lost birds. If you can go to a sporting clays range, shoot some shots at the various distances, at incoming and crossing targets to get a feel for how the gun moves, the lead needed in case the bird is moving, or flying , etc. If nothing else, shooting at clays gives you more confidence on that standing target.
 
Swamp Rat said:
Like Roundball suggests, setup a can at 20 yards and shoot it. See if the pellets penetrate it. If so, you should be fine at that yardage.
Question?? When we say penetrate do we mean entering the can or going through both sides. Entering and exiting??
Thanks.
 
Swamp Rat, Roundball and Paul, Thanks a million for all the time and effort you have given me!!! I can't tell you hoe exciting it is to read your considered thoughts and replies to my questions. With the data presented here, I think the educated guess of 700-750 f.p.s. to be real close at the muzzle. Further, reading Paul's reply and data has given me a better sense of confidence that the old gun can put Ole Tom in my oven. As I wrote previously, this load puts at least 10 pellets in a turkey kill zone. I got as many as 15 for a high today BTW. I think if our velocity assumptions are close, remaining energy out to 20 yards will cleanly fold a gobbler. I want to say that I am not new to BP, but am to BP smoothbores. Also, the last 4 turkeys I have killed have all been within 20 yards as I hunted with a modified 2 3/4" smokeless shotgun. With my love of BP, I figured I had to buy this musket and try BP shotgunning one this Spring. Please let me know if you have any more thoughts on my aspirations! Anybody else is very welcomed to chime in as well please. Again thanks. Skychief.

P.s.- I cannot remember being so giddy with a new endeavor as the one I am embarking on (BP turkey hunting with a 140+ year old gun). I am already looking forward to much more experimentation as far as load developments go. In my readings here, I think I can say a Fowler may soon be in my stable also. I love the idea of ONE gun to take everything from the rabbits we take over beagles to bucks with a roundball and everything in between. Thanks again. Skychief.
 
dgold said:
Swamp Rat said:
Like Roundball suggests, setup a can at 20 yards and shoot it. See if the pellets penetrate it. If so, you should be fine at that yardage.
Question?? When we say penetrate do we mean entering the can or going through both sides. Entering and exiting??
Thanks.

If you have a tin can like Roundball suggests, not a aluminum soda can, and you have your load penetrating one side at distance X, you should be fine for head shots on turkeys.
 
dgold said:
Swamp Rat said:
Like Roundball suggests, setup a can at 20 yards and shoot it. See if the pellets penetrate it. If so, you should be fine at that yardage.
Question?? When we say penetrate do we mean entering the can or going through both sides. Entering and exiting??
Thanks.

Speaking just for myself, I save & use tuna cans at the recommendation of DaveK...they are 4" across, quite thick and strong, and I set them so the bottom is my target...so penetration to me is completely passing through the bottom of that stout little can.

040607-16No.jpg
 
More than one old barrel has been saved by having a liner put in it. You might give that some thought before taking further chances of destroying the old barrel. Bobby Hoyt does this kind of work. There is also a firm out in Oregon that does linings. I am sure there are others. The benefit is that you keep all the outer markings on the original barrel, and its iron or soft steel composition, while having the benefit of a New Steel Liner that is strong and will protect the remains of the old barrel from being ruptured. In most cases, the steel liner can take the maximum chamber pressure you can generate in itself.

I was thinking about this reading your comments about the widened area at the breech. Until the breechplug is removed for a good look, there is no way to know what the wide area is, its true dimensions, and what might have caused it. Most of these rifles were Percussion rifles, chambered for the .58 caliber loads, but some were also chambered for other calibers. No larger caliber makes any sense, because the entire length of the barrel would be bored out wider, too, and not just that short section in the breech.

You might give some thought to having one of the experts look at and remove the breechplug over the summer, and then make up your mind about having the barrel bored out and a liner installed. My brother recently had a Springfield Trapdoor .45-70 owned by our father lined, to improve an impossible situation where the barrel was so overbored that you could not load a large enough bullet in the casing and chamber the casing in the chamber, so that the bullet would fill the grooves to give any kind of accuracy. Mark Behnke Gun Shop, Sprague River, Oregon, put a steel liner in the barrel, with a faster 1:18 ROT, 6 lands and grooves rather than the 7 common in the original gun( to make it absolutely clear to anyone that this is NOT the original barrel), with a well sized and reamed chamber, and a .458 bore. You cannot see the seam where the barrel ends and the liner begins, either at the muzzle or at the breech. But it has changed the performance of the rifle for the better. We still have not shot it enough to know exactly just how good it is. We think its now better than we can hold those sights over a rest. More important, it took a wall-hanger, and made it back into a working rifle.
 
Paul, this is as good an idea as I have heard yet! Much better than hanging her over the fireplace. I WILL check into this as soon as possible. I wonder what risk exists in turning out that breechplug....a question for the experts to answer, I suppose. Can you give me an idea how much a liner and it's installation might cost? If need be, p.m. that info to me (assuming that is possible on this forum, as I haven't recieved any p.m.'s that I know of). Again, GREAT option...and one that know one had kicked around until now. Thanks, Skychief.
 
If you are only getting 700-750 fps. out of your load at the muzzle, you are not sealing off the gases well enough. This happened to me with my 20 gauge fowler, because it is over bored, and closer to 19 gauge. The 20 ga. wads I bought did not seal the bore, and we were getting 800-835 fps with a load that should have delivered more than 1035 fps. When I used New, 19 gauge wads, the velocity came right up to what it should be, and the ball hit closer to POA, instead of about 8 inches lower.
 
Ican't give you current costs. It was about $200 for the .45-70, but the man was doing several of the same kind of liners in Springfields every week. You should expect the prices to rise, just because everything else has. And you should expect some extra expense for removing the breechplug, if its badly corroded, and needs to be soaked in kerosene for a week or so, to get it loose. Breechplugs were made with threads back then, so it will not be any extra trouble getting it out. Some of these have threads that are in amazingly good condition, compared to the bores. Hoyt is a member here, and he may be listed in the " Links", too. I have a phone number for Behnke, if you want to contact him. Just send me a PT.
 
Roundball, your test is clearly invalid since your date on your tuna can is expired. :haha:

How come I never see you around ALR any more?
 
marmotslayer said:
Roundball, your test is clearly invalid since your date on your tuna can is expired. :haha:
:grin:
How come I never see you around ALR any more?
Have really scaled back the amount of time spent on forums in general...trimmed down to just a couple for the past year or so...guess I should at least check in every now and then to see if there's anything for sale I can't live without :grin:
 
I know what you mean about time spent on forums. Iv'e cut back to mainly this forum, ALR and a couple milsurp forums.
 

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