Will patch lube "weaken" powder charge?

[Skychief]

I was skimming through a 1981 copy of 'Muzzle Blasts' magazine just now. An article therein alluded to the possibility of a roundball's patch lube
weakening the powder it sits on. I have only skimmed the article to this point. I have wondered in the past if Bore Butter or other lubes would in fact leach into the powder charge and thus weaken it (to whatever degree). Would a rifle loaded with prb's for a few day's, or less (as on a hunt) have it's charge deadened a bit from the lube "leaching" into the powder. What say you? All opinions and commentary appreciated as always!!!!

Skychief.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yes. All liquid lubes will leach in, as will most grease or even "dry" lubes. Depends much on how much you glob on a patch. Pull a load and see what is stuck to the patch some time.

When loading up for a hunt I put a small wad of waxed paper between the powder and the lubed ball. I have let such a charge sit for 11 months as a test. Hit about 2" high at 50 yards but went of crisply.

 

It's true, in principle, but in actuality it is not a loss of power that i have ever felt. i load PRB on top of bare powder and have left it that way overnight and next day it went off without any noticeable difference. Always when i shoot it's the same.
just dont over lube your patch.. or use a OP wad like Stumpkiller and that will solve it. i would use one but never had luck with them in this rifle.

 

[Skychief]

I have pulled loads and know about the powder grains in the lube on the patch. I am by no means an engineer nor scientist, which leads me to the following.....When the powder ignites, is sufficient heat produced to combust even the grains of powder that have been affected by the lube?????? I, too, have shot prb's days after they were loaded and have not noticed much if any change in point of impact versus a fresh load. I am just asking to get to the bottom of this mystery, if we can find it!

 

[jtmattison]

I conducted my own experiment some time ago to answer this very question.

Please see my results here .

HD

 

[Skychief]

Thanks a lot Dawg. I read the thread with interest. It seems that since you could light most of the contaminated powder in the manner that you did, that the heat produced from an actual shot would surely do the same and probably ignite ALL the contaminated grains of powder! Am I thinking clearly????

 

[MikeC]

For hunting patches I only use TOTW Mink Oil. Have left it loaded for at least two weeks more than a few times with no problems. Range work I just use plain old spit, really doesn't matter because your typically shooting within a few minutes of loading anyway.

 

[jtmattison]

It seems that since you could light most of the contaminated powder in the manner that you did, that the heat produced from an actual shot would surely do the same and probably ignite ALL the contaminated grains of powder! Am I thinking clearly????

That was my conclusion. I don't worry about contamination any more. The tiny bit of powder that may not ignite is too insignificant to matter.

HD

 

[roundball]

All opinions and commentary appreciated as always!!!!

One of the beneficial aspects of Natural Lube 1000 is that it has no negative effect on powder, and for that reason is why its the only lube I use for hunting.

If you happen to use a different lube which may have a negative effect then an Oxyoke wad over the powder will prevent that. Incidently, the Oxyoke "wonderwads" are prelubed with Natural Lube 1000...underscoring the fact that NL-1000 has no negative effect on powder.

 

[Vaino]

Some reasons why POI wouldn't change...the heat generated by the adjacent hot gases would ignite the "wet" powder immediately behind the patch and if for some unlikely reason, some of this powder didn't ignite, this amount would be w/in the error thrown from a volume measure. BP doesn't have the stored energy per amt that smokeless powder has, otherwise we'd be weighing each charge in lieu of using a volume measure.....Fred

 

[Billnpatti]

I'd say that there was truth in that. If you use a heavily lubed patch, you run the risk of some of the lube leaching into the powder and causing it to either not burn or to burn slowly. In either case, you will notice a change in the point of impact of your bullet. The longer the range, the greater the difference. However, if you use a patch that is only lightly lubed with a non-aqueous lube, you will minimize the leaching effect. One of the leading experts on black powder rifle accuracy, Dutch Schoultz, recommends that you use a "dry patch" for greatest accuracy. To get this dry patch, you mix one part Balistol in 5 to7 parts water. Wet the patch material with this mixture and then lay it out to dry. Once it is dry, it is ready to use as patching material. Something like this will minimize any patch lube leaching into your powder. If you use this dry patch method, you will need to run a patch dampened with the Balistol mixture through your bore after each shot to keep down the fouling.

 

[Dphar]

I was skimming through a 1981 copy of 'Muzzle Blasts' magazine just now. An article therein alluded to the possibility of a roundball's patch lube
weakening the powder it sits on. I have only skimmed the article to this point. I have wondered in the past if Bore Butter or other lubes would in fact leach into the powder charge and thus weaken it (to whatever degree). Would a rifle loaded with prb's for a few day's, or less (as on a hunt) have it's charge deadened a bit from the lube "leaching" into the powder. What say you? All opinions and commentary appreciated as always!!!!

Skychief.

It is not unusual to find partly burnt powder/black caking on patches that are excessively lubed. I use oils for patch lube.
Now does this effect velocity to any great extent? Have not tested.
I would also point out that I do not use wet patches if the rifle is to remain loaded for more than a minute or two.

Dan

 

[musketman]

If you use a heavily lubed patch, you run the risk of some of the lube leaching into the powder and causing it to either not burn or to burn slowly.

I agree 100%, no matter what kind of lube you are using, excessive amounts touching the powder cannot be a benefit to anyone.

The key is knowing just how much to use to prevent the patch from burning through and loosing it's seal, and that comes from trial and error.

The leeching may not cause any real problems, but why take any chances. In my opinion, we fuss over our muzzleloaders to extract our best loads from them, skimping over the amount of lube (be it too much or too less) is one step we should show more consistency with to get the results we desire.

 

[Mad Professor]

Yes. All liquid lubes will leach in, as will most grease or even "dry" lubes. Depends much on how much you glob on a patch. Pull a load and see what is stuck to the patch some time.

When loading up for a hunt I put a small wad of waxed paper between the powder and the lubed ball. I have let such a charge sit for 11 months as a test. Hit about 2" high at 50 yards but went of crisply.

Same experience except I used a wonder wad instead of wax paper. Hit exact same POA at 50 yds as a fresh charge.

 

[longcruise]

One of the beneficial aspects of Natural Lube 1000 is that it has no negative effect on powder, and for that reason is why its the only lube I use for hunting.

Have done the same and killed game wigh a rifle that had been loaded for three weeks.

However, I once took a rifle to the range that had been loaded for about three months using 1000+ lube. After the shot I happened to look out near the 25 yard line and saw smoke rising out of the grass. Checked it out and it was the patch. Apparently the contaminated powder had stuck to the patch and done a slow burn and then ignited the patch. By the time I arrived on the scene most of the patch had been consumed.

 

[roundball]

However, I once took a rifle to the range that had been loaded for about three months using 1000+ lube.

It is impossible for that scenario to happen to me.

 

[hanshi]

If you use enough lube it sure can happen. I'd think it's much less of a problem in cold weather than say, summer. I use water based lubes and use a wad over the powder. I like my patches wet. Of course you can't/shouldn't leave a wet patch in the bore for any appreciable length of time.

 

[roundball]

No...his "scenario" was a gun left loaded for 3 months...mine never stays loaded over night much less 3 months.

 

[longcruise]

No...his "scenario" was a gun left loaded for 3 months...mine never stays loaded over night much less 3 months.

Both my long term loads were intentional. The one with the month long was my big game load for elk left loaded intentionally for antelope season a month later. That resulted in a one shot kill at 85 yards from a kneeling position.

The one left loaded for three months was also intentional to see what the results would be.

There are safety considerations! Mine was stored in a locked case in a locked room with at tag on the hammer saying "loaded". Not to warn others but to remind myself.

I have seen posts where the shooter evidently believes that since BP is highly Hydroscopic (the right word? ) that powder left loaded in the gun will result in corrosion. However, unburned powder does not present that problem. Suppose it could if loaded with a water based lube or such. I use water base lubes but they are never in the bore longer than about 10 minutes and usually about one minute.

Methinks if one wanted to do further testing on the volatility of lubes it could be done by leaving speed loaders loaded and then load into the rifle to fire.

 

[jtmattison]

I have seen posts where the shooter evidently believes that since BP is highly Hydroscopic (the right word? ) that powder left loaded in the gun will result in corrosion. However, unburned powder does not present that problem.

It's actually hygroscopic. You are correct. Unburnt powder normally doesn't present the problem. However, a lot of people will say 4F in the pan will turn to slop in humid conditions. I've never seen it happen.

HD