Will pyrites work in a flintlock?

[TNHillbilly]

Totally frustrated with the inability of my 'Lauber wheellock' to fire, I put it away in a box a year ago and worked on other 'stuff'. I stopped in here the other day to see what progress others may have had.....I suppose Wulf has built 5 or 6 gonnes by now! I noticed the dissection of the original wheelie in a post down below, and specifically, the note of about 2 1/2 lbs pressure exerted on the cock. I decided to dig mine out and see if my brain worked any better...having aged a year, or so (still unsure of that)! I also noted reference/comment of pyrites in a mine spontaneously igniting......Hhhmm. I took some of my pyrites I'd cut down and thought I'd stick them in a flintlock pistol of known ability. Repeated attempts produced no spark, nothing, nada. Question: should a pyrite spark in a flintlock? Secondly: why? I tied a wire to the cock and inverted the lock in my hand, attaching a big soda bottle of approximately 4 lbs...didn't move the dog/cock. Do I have too much pressure on the wheel......slowing it down, as it were? Instead of trying to solve the entire problem, I thought maybe isolating/testing each component might yield some results. I might add, I also tried some ferrocerium in the flinter....they didn't work either. My French Amber 'flint' did work in the flintlock.

 

[Stayangry]

I suspect that you won't get your flintlock to work with pyrites, although agate will do the trick and is sometimes used for this purpose.

In a flintlock, your flint will shave tiny bits of white hot metal off the frizzen each time you fire it. Flint is quite a hard material, usually scoring 7 on the Mohs scale.

Iron pyrites is a bit softer, scoring 6 or 6.5 on the same scale, which might explain why you are having trouble - it is too soft to scrape away the steel. (Agate scores 7, by the way)

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The pyrite will not work well in a flintlock. It is too soft to shave off metal from the frizzen. If your frizzen was grooved it might work. Wheelock ignition depends on the pyrite being shaved by the wheel producing incendiary sparks of iron sulfide. Moreover, many pyrites will probably crumble when smashed against the frizzen. I have an old Italian repro of the Lauber lock that sparks very well. I had problems initially, however, because the dog did not push the pyrite hard enough against the wheel after the pan opened. I reshaped the toe of the dog so that the dog spring snapped it down hard against the pan cover, and then pushed it further down on the wheel when the cover was opened during firing. I think many dogs get hung up at the postion on top of the pan cover and don't drop down further when the cover slides forward. You also must make sure that the dog screw is not tightened down too hard against the bridle causing friction with the dog. Ideally, the threads on the screw should be just right so you can tighten it down snugly with the shoulder of the threads hitting the lockplate, but the unthreaded portion on which the dog rides is exactly as long as the combined width of the dog and bridle.

dave

 

[bioprof]

I've noticed with my Brescian lock that the sparks produced by the pyrite are not very bright. They don't seem to be very noticeable at all, but will ignite the powder. When I use ferrocerium, I get a brighter spark, but it doesn't seem hot enough to ignite the powder.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Very helpful hints! I think the fellows have established that all rocks called 'pyrites' don't necessarily mean they'll work in a wheelie. I was attempting to find a way to establish whether or not my pieces have the necessary composition/chemistry to work. As for the geometry associated with the cock's toe, I haven't exactly figured the precise design. Most pics of originals have that blocked by the bridle. Is it possible for you to provide a close-up pic/sketch of what you did? I have, at this point, mounted only the cock and spring to test that very theory. Indeed, I may have to remake/reshape to get the proper throw/pressure. I guess most have seen a 'try' hammer for use with a flint or percussion, to get the correct geometry. Bill

 

[dave_person]

Hi Bill,
I will post pictures of my lock as soon as I can. It produces white hot sparks every time. My pyrites are particularly good. I found them locally (I live in Ketchikan Alaska) in a quarry used to build a logging road. They are all perfect cube crystals that are pretty hard (cannot be cut easily with a hack saw) but solid and not friable. I knap small rectangular pieces off each crystal using a small cold chisel and hammer. There is no need to sharpen them because a blunt end works just as well as a point. That is because, contrary to the Foley paper, the wheel is grinding away the pyrite. You can see the wheel marks on the pyrite with a magnifying glass. If the reverse were true, the pan cover would be badly gouged after a few shots, but it is not. Think of all the splendidly decorated wheelocks that have engraved pan covers. Certainly many were probably rarely shot but photos of the pans show no wear on the pan covers. That would not be the case if the pyrites wers cutting into the steel. Moreover, the wheel would be ground down and large gaps would form between the wheel ridges and grooves in the pan allowing powder to drop down and jam the wheel. The fit between the wheel and the pan must be fairly precise and that fit would be ruined very quickly if the wheel were being ground down by the pyrite. The old makers knew this, which is why they chose to use softer pyrites rather than hard flints. That is also why all of the locks that used flints used a radically different conceptual design from the wheelocks. The Foley paper, which I read along with his paper in Scientific American,is a classic case of focusing on a tree but forgetting to look at the forest.

dave

 

[Tinker2]

I took some of my pyrites I'd cut down and thought I'd stick them in a flintlock pistol of known ability. Repeated attempts produced no spark, nothing, nada. Question: should a pyrite spark in a flintlock?

So I cut a chunk of my pyrite today to fit my trade gun, it sparks ok. Send me your mailing address and I will send it [the pyrite] to you if you like.
No cost to you, just let us know how it works.
[email protected]



Tinker2

 

[TNHillbilly]

I'll email you the address. I appreciate the offer very much. At least I can test the various components! Bill :hatsoff:

 

[Stayangry]

Just thinking: if hardness - and the ability to hold an edge - are essential to producing a good gun "flint" then presumably almost any mineral material with the right characteristics would do the job?

Would a diamond work, do you reckon?

 

[widget350]

The degree of hardness is important. A diamond, being the hardest substance naturally occuring, will cut into any other material. For a wheellock, where you want the mineral to be "ground" away by the wheel, that is a bad thing. Also, diamonds aren't tough. Being so hard, they are brittle, which is how they are "cut." They're actually not cut (except by LASER), but traditionally sheared by impact. I'd suspect that using one in a flinter would result in an eaten frizzen and a shattered diamond. What's more, unless you have a lot of them in your yard, they'll be a lot more expensive than normal flint material.

 

[Tinker2]

I have gotten your address, thanks. I will try to send them out Monday.

I have two pieces cut 7/8 X 7/8 of a inch.
Both were put in one of my flint locks and sparked.
I have other flint locks that I have tried similar pyrites in with the same good results. I used leather to clamp the pyrites in the jaw.

I also use pyrites like you would a flint and steel.

They are not sharpened as much as they could be to work in a flint lock but they will spark. they should work in you wheellock as is. I find the more I use it the better the spark.

Another thing that I would try, if I were attempting to trouble shooting your wheellock, is to open the pan first before I shot it and remove that from the equation. If it not timed right the wheel may have mostly spun before the pyrites gets to it?


Let us know how it works.
Tinker2

 

[TNHillbilly]

Here we are trying to duplicate 500-600 year old technology, and I suspect only a handful of fellows worldwide. In 1500, I'd guess folks had at least 5000 years of fire making ability behind them. My experiment 'du jour': I have 2 wheels I'd made up for the Lauber design lock. I took the older wheel, which I suspect I hardened deeper, and held it in my hand, striking it repeatedly with 'french amber' flint...a rather transluscent material. The second wheel gave a fairly consistent shower of sparks. I have two kinds of 'pyrites', one is rather spongy looking porous material, the other sort of 'cubistic' (bought from Horst) stuff. No matter how I struck either wheel with my 'pyrites', was I able to get a single spark. The second wheel I suspect has by now worn through the hardened exterior(evidenced by some sheen on the edges). I used Kasenite for both wheels. I read somewhere, long ago, the old timers in making frizzens, encased the part in leather.....and charcoal, packed this within clay and baked it several hours. Perhaps this was how wheellock wheels were made. I've found frizzens work best, for me, heat hardened, then drawn at 350 deg F, for an hour (in my wife's oven). Supposedly, they gathered old horseshoes, chopped them up, and used that for damascus steel. The 'shoes' having been cold forged.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Thanks again Tinker! You seem to have proven one thing: a working 'pyrite' will spark in a flintlock. While using it regularly instead of flint may not be suitable, it certainly seems to suggest a viable way of testing. I did find by mounting only the cock and cock spring on the plate, I have 'flat spot' in the pressure in the closed position. While the spring appears to exert 4lbs, plus, the toe needs reworking/reshaping to continue the arc's pressure downward. It would seem this can best measured only by removing the pan. Indeed, to try this new pyrite, I will leave the cover off! Bill

 

[TNHillbilly]

Many thanks Tinker! They arrived this morning. Odd thing is I was surprised at their appearance. They look nothing like the 'pyrites' I bought! These are more 'bronze' like in color and seem much more solid, or rocklike in appearance than the flake like appearance of my cubes. It appears you cut them with something, I will have to cut one down a bit to fit my pan....guessing I can try my diamond blade tile cutting saw?

 

[Tinker2]

Many thanks Tinker! They arrived this morning. Odd thing is I was surprised at their appearance. They look nothing like the 'pyrites' I bought! These are more 'bronze' like in color and seem much more solid, or rocklike in appearance than the flake like appearance of my cubes. It appears you cut them with something, I will have to cut one down a bit to fit my pan....guessing I can try my diamond blade tile cutting saw?

I did not clean them up, :idunno: they can get quite dirty when you cut them. :redface:

Yes, I cut them on a “wet” diamond blade tile cutting saw.
Very dirty, dusty when you cut them and smells like sulfuric acid.
Do use a dust mask please. They will turn your hands black when you cut them and can rust your diamond blade.

So, did you try to spark them? Try one in your flint lock?
I sparked both of them in one of my guns. They are not sharpened as much as they could be to work in a flint lock but they did spark.
Try it like a flint and steel?

I sent some to Teleoceras and he said.

“The most I got before trouble was 5 shots. But after swapping them for a clean pyrite, the shooting was fine again. Once I cleaned the dirty ones, they shot well once again and consistently.”

Good luck and keep us informed please.
Tinker2

 

[TNHillbilly]

Using one as 'flint and steel', I was able to get the softer of my two wheels to spark. Even though I hardened both with Kasenite, the better of the two has, I think, worn through. They are a bit too long for my flintlock pistols. We're supposed to finally warm a bit so perhaps I can dig out my tile saw. I do notice they are 'dirty' to the touch.....like fine powder. Maybe this is a function of the sulfer(or compound thereof within).

 

[TNHillbilly]

Thought I'd mention that I took the second piece of pyrite (the sharper edged) and chucked it in my flint pistol. Being a bit long for the smallish jaws, I cocked the the thing but left the frizzen about half way open. Upon pulling the trigger, yes....a nice shower of little sparky thingys! :thumbsup:

 

[Tinker2]

Thought I'd mention that I took the second piece of pyrite (the sharper edged) and chucked it in my flint pistol. Being a bit long for the smallish jaws, I cocked the the thing but left the frizzen about half way open. Upon pulling the trigger, yes....a nice shower of little sparky thingys! :thumbsup:

Good, I am glad to hear that.

Now You know that pyrites can work like a flint and if you say it, most of the people “in the know”, will think that your nuts. Welcome to my club.

Another thing that I do, when everything is sparking, is use FFg in the pan. If you watch the sparks hit FFFFg you will see sparks bouncing off the prime, the FFg with more air space between the grains catches and will retain some nice hot sparks in the priming.

Sounds like your on the right road to a useable Wheellock.
Please keep us informed.




Tinker2

 

[TNHillbilly]

Yes, and it consistently sparks in the flinter! The structure of the piece you provided looks like it most closely resembles the 'Disc', or 'dollar' pyrite shown in Wikapedia under 'Pyrite mineral'. Can you verify what yours looked like to start with? I can't tell you how many hours of spent scr....g with these 'pyrites' I bought!

 

[Tinker2]

Yes, and it consistently sparks in the flinter! The structure of the piece you provided looks like it most closely resembles the 'Disc', or 'dollar' pyrite shown in Wikapedia under 'Pyrite mineral'. Can you verify what yours looked like to start with? I can't tell you how many hours of spent scr....g with these 'pyrites' I bought!

Yes, that’s what has worked for me the best and that’s is what I sent you and Teleoceras.

Some of the types of pyrites that I tried.

For me, they all worked [sparked] well.

Close up of the dollar type of pyrites.

It was the easiest one to cut into the shapes I wanted. They all sparked for me. The pyrites in the top picture on the far left were the most crumbly of them, but they did not shatter, they just did not last as long.


A earlier post about pyrite. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/231922/post/693581/hl//fromsearch/1/



Tinker2