with Shot, plastic wads?

[5knives]

Well, I finally got most everything together for my first trip to the range with my new Pedersoli "Trade Gun".

I'm pretty well set with everything I need to experiment with RB, (Thanks to all the good folks here for covering the subject in the past.).

But. I've never used a BP shotgun, so I still need some sage advice.

What is the experience here with using Power Piston, etc, plastic shot cups, pro and con.

If your for or agin 'em, then please tell me what your load components are and what the loading process is.

Or, if the discussion is an old one and I missed it, I'd appreciate a pointer or link to the topic.

Thank You!

I 'preciate it!

Gary

 

[TANSTAAFL]

If they fit, they should work fine, if using steel shot, you will have little choice in the matter. I use the steel shot plastics in my .62 fusil.

As for loads, like the English adage says, "little powder, much shot, shoot far," it works for me.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I normally like to use the standard loads that have proved effective over the years and are still popular in factory loaded shotshells, such as 3 1/4 drams powder to 1 1/4 ounces shot in a 12 ga. gun. But since you have a 10 ga. and most popular 10 ga. loads today are magnum shoulder blasters, I'd just run 12 ga. loads in 10 ga. wads.
Plastic wads often don't do well with blackpowder, they don't seal well at low preasures and are melted onto the bore by gas blowby, which doesn't help patterns either. But there are good cleaning agents available which at least claim to make plastic cleanup simple, I can't speak from experience as to those claims, claims are like-well, you know what claims are like.
If you do load plastic DO load at least one thick overpowder card wad before the plastic, I prefer two, that helps greatly with sealing and fouling issues. Ram the card wads dry, then smear some grease or BP lube inside the muzzle before ramming the plastic. Circle-fly card wads are laminated in a way that makes it very easy to split the .125" cards into three thin wads to serve as over-shot wads, so you only have to buy one package of wads at about $7.00 a 1000 and you're set for a lot of shootin'.
Have fun.-- ::
OH WAIT, I just realized you may not be talking about the old cut-down Brown Bess but the new 20 ga.---Never Mind-

 

[roundball]

Plastic wads often don't do well with blackpowder.....and are melted onto the bore by gas blowby

I agree...but I've never understood that...I've reloaded trap and skeet loads for 20+ years and the plastic wads are seated right down directly on the powder...and a .12ga Trap Handicap load has some powder in it...but there's never any plastic melting...I watched a guy shoot BP in some yellow .20ga winchester AA hulls...when he broke open the O/U and picked out the hulls, the front half of them had melted off...he just had the brass bases and a half inch of plastic hull left...maybe because BP burns so much slower and the fire/heat lasts a bit longer?...dunno

 

[BrownBear]

Way back when, roughly 30 years ago, someone published a great article on using plastic wads in a ML 12 (I can't find it right now). His basic point was that by trimming the length of the petals on the wad you can tighten or loosen a pattern. I used that approach for years with lead shot in my double 12. Basically, with my WAA12 Red wads, I got an Improved Modified pattern with the uncut wad, an open Modified with half the length of the wad petals cut off, and something a little tighter than cylinder with all but 1/4 cut off. Cutting the petals off completely brought it back to cylinder while giving a decent gas seal (all with a felt over-powder wad added).

I let the shotgun go when steel shot first came on the scene and haven't replaced it yet because I don't want anything with chokes. The friend I sold mine to (darn his hide, he won't sell it back) has tried the same approach to cutting wads with Bismuth shot, and is really happy.

The best thing about it was being able to have a measure of "choke" performance in cylinder bores, while being able to change "chokes" in the field any time you reloaded.

Give it a try.

 

[musketman]

What is the experience here with using Power Piston, etc, plastic shot cups, pro and con.

Plastic wads will still require an over-shot card to hold the shot in the cup...

If you are concerned about the plastic melting, try a few over-shot cards betweem the powder and plastic wad...

 

[Flint50]

I have used the plactic shot cups for years in my 12ga sxs. Never had any problems with melted cups. I've inspected the cups from time to time, looking for damage, but there is none that I can see. I have always put the cup directley on the powder with an over shot card. The gun patterns fine, and Ive kilt lots of critters with this combination. :m2c:

 

[The Baron]

I first used plastic shot cups in experimenting with turkey loads in my .75 fowler, and they provided a definite improvement in that gun. I loaded powder, overpowder card, pre-lubed wad, a shot cup with the piston cut off, then overshot card. Good turkey patterns to 25 yards and a bit further, which was a 10 yard improvement over no shot cup. I also use a full piston/cup in turkey loads for my 12ga. New Englander. I find the plastic cups do improve patterns. But, after several shots you need to use a bronze brush to get the plastic fouling out of the bore.

 

[Liver eatin’ Johnson]

My experience is the same as the Baron with plastic wads used directly over the powder - barrel cleaning showed melted plastic streaking the bores and a bronze bruch is needed to remove it all. :results:

 

[roundball]

My experience is the same as the Baron with plastic wads used directly over the powder - barrel cleaning showed melted plastic streaking the bores and a bronze bruch is needed to remove it all. :results:

That what happened when I tried .20ga wads in my cylinder bore .62cal SB...so using tips from various boards, I experimented with some home made paper shotcups instead and they work perfectly...they protect the shot from the bore and create the effect of a choke...then flutter to the ground 5-10 feet from the muzzle so there's nothing to drive forward through the shot column and blow a pattern...makes outstanding long range loads for turkey, or squirrels at the top of tall trees, etc...averages 8 #6's in a coke can at 40yds (that's a 2.5" x 5' target face).
Has plenty of power...punches through a heavier metal coffee can at that same distance.
(just haven't got a turkey to cooperate yet!)

 

[5knives]

Thank You All ,

These are exactly the kind of reponses I was hoping for.

With some Bonus tips (cutting shot cup petals and using paper shot cups)

I should have mentioned that my planned use will be lead shot, Freezing my butt off in a Waterfowl blind quit being fun for me some time ago. Well unless someone calls me up this fall and has a real good spot someplace. I could be persuaded to change my mind.

Sounds like my tests will be A: bare shot. B: Plastic shot cups (with an eye to tighter patterns, and a bit more range). and C: Make up some paper shot cups.

Sounds like I should start with an over powder wad, felt wad, and of course top it off with an over shot wad.

That plastic melting would seem to make sense with BP's slower pressure peak, and presumably lower initial velocity I would guess you're right, the cup is just in contact with the "fire" longer in a BP gun.

If I've got it wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me!

Thanks again for the help!

It is deeply appreciated. :hatsoff:

Regards

Gary

 

[Rebel]

I have used Winchester AA wads for years in my double barrel .12 ga. I have used them directly on top of the powder mostly. There is some melted plastic in the barrel if you do a lot of shooting, but it comes out easy with a .12 ga bore brush and then a normal water cleaning. I have also used them with a card wad over the powder then the plastic shotcup. Using this method there is little to no plastic left in the barrels. You might also try just using 2-3 thin overshot card wads over the powder, then the shot, and another overshot card. Only have to carry one type of wad with this method. It is the V.M. Starr method. He was or is, not sure which, a muzzleloader shotgun Guru. Have fun with the shotgun, they are a real blast. ::

 

[TANSTAAFL]

A problem I have seen with many of the imported smooth (not) bores, is the bores are often very rough. I think this contributes more to the plastic residue than any other factor. I never have had this problem with the highly polished bore in my Getz .62 46 inch barrel.

 

[Rebel]

The barrels in my Navy Arms double barrel are good and smooth. It has had a lot of shots fired through it. I don't get a lot of plastic, but will get some if i shoot a lot in one session with the wad seated on the powder with no card wad. Part of it could be from powder fouling.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

:agree:--with TANSTAAFL about bore roughness. I once had an old Belgium made double 12 with bores in good shape but lightly pitted. I would have ribbons of plastic hanging off the bore brush! I expect that different brands of wads may have different fouling qualities also.
Rebel, I believe you're mistaken on V.M.Starr's load. As I recall he recomended two hard .125" overpowder wads with another overpowder split in two as an overshot. Overshot cards only run about .025" thick so it would take five of them to make one overpowder.
I don't know just what causes plastic to soften with blackpowder but I've found I can reload plastic shells with black or Pyrodex only once or twice as the case mouth becomes too soft to hold a crimp. Not just soft coming hot out of the gun, it stays soft, as if chemically altered.
But I have seen that with both black and Pyrodex which are very different chemicals.
I also agree with Roundball, I don't know either.-- ::

 

[Rebel]

i have had good luck with the overshot cards over the powder.

From VM Starrs shotgun page.

"I use only one kind of wads and those I cut from cardboard like display signs that are extra thick, about 3/32 is about right and use two of these on the powder and one on the shot. I have had several pretty wise gun men tell me that that is not enough wads before they saw the results but never have had one say a word further on the subject after they had seen one of my guns perform so loaded. You can put in more wads on the powder if you wish or if you enjoy cutting them but my experience tells me that you are just wasting your time and cardboard and in spite of the fact that shot gun shells have felt wads in them and always have had as far as I know I don't think they are at all necessary in a muzzle loader. Anyhow, if my guns shot any better I would not know what to do with the extra efficiency."

 

[elcazador]

I use modern shot cup in all of my ML shotguns. I also sit a Overpowder card & felt cushion before using the cup. I actually trim the flex-wad based off the shotcup, just leaving the cup to hold the shot load. Never had any problems with plastic residue or melted cups and the ML shotguns I've used this in pattern very tight.

 

[Maestro]

Sounds like I should start with an over powder wad, felt wad, and of course top it off with an over shot wad.

...what I use with good results. An 1/8" over-powder card, 1/2" cushion wad, and a thin over-shot card with a few pin holes punched in it (to let some of the gasses escape). (...oh, and don't forget the POWDER before any of the above as well as the SHOT between the cushion wad and the over-shot card! :

... and then adjust the load (for tight vs. wide pattern) based on the following little rhyme:

Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead.
More powder, less lead, kicks hard, wide spread.
:thumbsup:

 

[redhorse1955]

I would like some input.....
I have a Pendersoli 10 Ga side by side. Right barrel is cylinder and left barrel is Modified choke. It's not rated for steel and I'm going to take it out for goose in Sept. [I bought this gun new before non-toxic shot was required for waterfowl].
I also have a small amount of Hevi-Shot that I'm going to experiment with. I already plan on putting the shot in a shot cup, but the ones I have are for modern cartridge reloading and have a plastic wad attached under the cup. I use an 1/8" over powder wad followed by a 1/2" cushion wad for lead shot. Should I eliminate the fiber cushion wad and just use the plastic as is or should I use the fiber wad and cut the plastic wad off? My plan is also to put BB's in the cyl. side and the Hevi-shot in the Modified side. Has anyone experimented with mixing hevi-shot with steel shot in the same load? Any other suggestions will be helpful.

:thanks:
Marv

 

[Mike Brooks]

I would like some input.....
I have a Pendersoli 10 Ga side by side. Right barrel is cylinder and left barrel is Modified choke. It's not rated for steel and I'm going to take it out for goose in Sept. [I bought this gun new before non-toxic shot was required for waterfowl].
I also have a small amount of Hevi-Shot that I'm going to experiment with. I already plan on putting the shot in a shot cup, but the ones I have are for modern cartridge reloading and have a plastic wad attached under the cup. I use an 1/8" over powder wad followed by a 1/2" cushion wad for lead shot. Should I eliminate the fiber cushion wad and just use the plastic as is or should I use the fiber wad and cut the plastic wad off? My plan is also to put BB's in the cyl. side and the Hevi-shot in the Modified side. Has anyone experimented with mixing hevi-shot with steel shot in the same load? Any other suggestions will be helpful.

:thanks:
Marv

Your best solution is spend alot of time at the pattern board. Like rifles, every shotgun has loads it will shoot and loads it won't.