wood patch box

[faste350]

for the experts: is a wood patch box acceptable on a golden age rifle? or would they have been brass or steel only?

 

[longrifle78]

Wood boxes became less common in later periods but they were still used here and there. There are some guns in Bill Iveys north Carolina book that have wood boxes that were probably made in the 1820-1830 period.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The term "golden age long rifle" is a label largely applied to the evolution of rifles in Pennsylvania and those adjacent areas heavily influenced by PA gun makers. It may not apply very well to other areas such as TN, Kentucky, and locations further south and west. Within the PA sphere of influence, wood patch box covers largely disappeared after the Rev War but there are a few early "golden age" guns that have wooden lids. For example, there are a few post Rev War guns by John Noll, J. P. Beck, and Jacob Sell with wooden lids. However, all of those guns were made early in the careers of those makers and none were likely made after 1785 or so.

dave

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Hi,
The term "golden age long rifle" is a label largely applied to the evolution of rifles in Pennsylvania and those adjacent areas heavily influenced by PA gun makers.

Can you describe the features that make a longrifle a "Golden Age" weapon and when did the "Golden Age" start?

 

[Zonie]

I'm guessing but I think Joe Kindig, Jr. coined the expression with his book "THOUGHTS ON THE KENTUCKY RIFLE IN ITS GOLDEN AGE " first published in 1960.

 

[Coot]

The American Long Rifle site says that the "golden age" is generally defined as starting at the end of the rev war and lasting to the turn of the century (1800) or just beyond. In my mind, this period features more heavily decorated rifles (three piece pierced patchboxes, engraving, multiple inlays etc.) than the norm for rifles produced earlier or later, realizing that there have always been both cheap and presentation pieces in every era.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I think Joe Kindig coined the term and cemented the label with his famous book published in the 1960s. Probably Kindig would say something like 1780-1820.

dave

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Hi,
I think Joe Kindig coined the term and cemented the label with his famous book published in the 1960s. Probably Kindig would say something like 1780-1820.

dave

Thanks to Dave and Coot.
So, I guess that means that my heavily decorated Traditions Pennsylvania Rifle (flintlock) could have existed at the end of The American Revolution.

 

[Coot]

To clarify, I believe that the "starting date" is considered to be after & not during the rev war. i.e. a "golden age" rifle would not be built or used during the war.

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Most helpful. Thanks. I guess I was trying to sneak that 1780 date in but at least it can be considered related to a time before the end of the 18th century.
Thank you.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Because so few long rifles are dated or signed, ascribing dates and "golden ages" is very subjective. For example, Kindig thought the famous and highly decorated Andrew Verner rifle was pre-Rev War. George Shumway and other scholars and authors assigned a later post-Rev War date to it and also many other guns that Kindig thought were early. Currently, new research suggests some very early dates for guns thought to be made during or shortly after the Rev War. It goes back and forth. I think the important point to consider about the "golden age" is that it likely arose because after the war there was a surplus of fine gun makers who developed during the war and competition between them created the slim, decorated guns we commonly refer to as "golden age". Many of those famous makers eventually quit the trade and became farmers and merchants, moved west to follow the market, or died in poverty. Consequently, the "golden age" was mostly a post-Rev War phenomena but that war ended in phases. After Monmouth in 1778, almost all the action went south and large supplies of French guns were becoming available. Pennsylvania became a quiet sector long before the war officially ended so many gun makers probably were in post war mode well before 1783.

dave

 

[LongrifleDoc]

Dave, you mirror my original thoughts on this. So, maybe I'll just continue to imagine that a gun like mine could have been found just prior to 1783. I can't afford a more period correct rifle just now but look forward to identifying a more specific time period and getting that dreamed of period correct rifle. Of course, with such a fine custom dream rifle, I'd probably be reluctant to use it much.

 

[George]

Don't forget that your gun doesn't have to have been built in 1783. It could have been built a long time before...decades, maybe... and still be in use. Listening to current day builders and collectors, you can come away with the impression all the guns in a certain period were built at that time, 'tain't so.

Spence

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Thanks to Dave and Coot.
So, I guess that means that my heavily decorated Traditions Pennsylvania Rifle (flintlock) could have existed at the end of The American Revolution.

I also have one of those and no, it did NOT exist during the Revolutionary war. It is way too heavily decorated. Rifles similar to that were more commonly found 1790 to 1800 and later.

After the Rev War, there were a lot of rifle-builders and all of a sudden the demand for rifles dropped tremendously. With the plethora of gun makers competing for the much smaller market, rifle-makers began to more heavily decorate their rifles with pierced patchboxes (wood shows through parts of the patchbox), brass decor distributed around the wrist, brass decor along the forearm, and of course brass decor along the cheekpiece to make their rifles stand out for other gunsmith's work. Your Traditions PA Longrifle has ALL of those decorations.

Silver wire inlays (primarily nickel-silver also known as German silver, which actually has no silver in it) also became popular, and of course the relief carving was sometimes taken to extremes. Rifle calibers also went down to .40 and .45. The butt section of the stock was much thinner because the loads used were smaller (less recoil) and it typically had a deep crescent shape to it. With the exception of the silver wire inlays, the Traditions PA has all these features.

By the way, I've never been able to find the "American Brigade of the Revolution" reenactment group that supposedly said it was "approved" for Rev War reenactments. The BAR (Brigade of the American Revolution) certainly never said that. You can certainly use it for that - I did for years - and no one will say you can't. But anyone who knows about flintlock rifles at the time will recognize immediately that it is a Golden Age rifle and not a Rev War rifle. Still, it is a pretty piece and a darn good shooter too.

Prior to this period there were no pierced patchboxes. Early rifles had either no patchbox or had wooden patchboxes. By the Rev War era brass patchboxes were the rule though wooden ones could still be found occasionally. Some patchboxes were thin and long and others took up most of the side of the stock.

Decor on a Rev War rifle was limited to possibly having a thumbpiece behind the tang of the barrel for "special occasion" and commemorative rifles, and occasionally had a hunting star on the cheekpiece. Rococo relief engraving behind and under the cheekpiece was common. The forearm was not decorated, nor was the wrist of the stock. Butt sections were wider and not as deeply curved, and calibers were generally .50 and larger.

So it's pretty hard to pass off the Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle as a Rev War gun, but neither the Continental Line nor the BAR will tell you that you can't use it. As I mentioned earlier, I used mine for many years in Rev War reenactments before I got an Early Lancaster rifle, which was much more appropriate for Rev War.

I found that my Traditions PA Longrifle shot best with a 95-gr. load of 3Fg powder. That's a pretty stout load in a .50 cal., but it shot very well with that for me.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan

 

[Elnathan]

There are a handful of rev-war era rifles with pierced boxes - the Valentine Fondersmith rifle with the roundfaced lock (RCA 74), the Jo(hn) Shock rifle with the date 1777 scratched into the inside of the box lid(RCA 75), and RCA 92 attributed to Shroyer. The vast majority do not have pierced boxes though.

Honestly, I don't think that the Traditions PA is a very accurate replica of anything. Architecture is all wrong for a Golden Age rifle. My dad has one of the percussion versions, and it does shoot well, though. I'm kind of fond of it.

 

[timothy prouty]

HEY so what you guys are saying that the rifle that Mel Gibson carried in Patriots was wrong for the historical correctness

 

[Elnathan]

Well, it is a Woodbury school iron-mounted piece made by Frank House, so, yeah, kind of dubious. As I noted above, there are a very small number of rifles from the Revolutionary period with pierced boxes, so that particular feature doesn't bother me. It is the fact that it is an obviously modern-made fantasy piece....We really don't know what a SC-made rifle would have looked like at the time, so it difficult to say that it is definitely wrong, but it is pretty improbable.

Likewise that powderhorn.

The Patriot isn't an historically accurate movie in any other respect, either, so why worry?

Edited to add: I take that back - there IS a SC piece extant, a piece brought back to England by George Hanger called the John Thomas rifle, and now that I think about it I recall Frank House saying that it was the inspiration for the Martin rifle. It isn't iron-mounted, though, and the box is entirely different, while House has put his own distinctive style on the architecture.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Don't know about Gibson's gun but Daniel Day Lewis' in Last of he Mohicans was definitely not HC but then who really cares.

dave

 

[timothy prouty]

Well I was up to my club and they have bar and two of the guys said that my rifle was not hc but I seen a bunch of not hc cal because they were of 45cal and 50cal and 50was the smallest cal I've read about

 

[Artificer]

Spence 10 and others have shown original documentation on this forum about Pre AWI and AWI rifles that were below .50 Cal. So a smaller caliber than .50 does not automatically make a Rifle "Not HC" for the period, if the rest of the rifle is correct for the period.

However, a very popular 18th century caliber seems to have been .52 caliber, that unless one gets a custom made barrel in that caliber today, it is hard to find today. It is interesting the Real Hawken Rifles were also often made in .52 caliber, so it definitely had something going for it.

Gus