Seems like lately I see a lot more rifles with wooden patch boxes than a few years ago. Were they as common as brass patch boxes or is it just a trend today?
Wooden patch box flinters
- Thread starter Liver eatin’ Johnson
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Maestro
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I believe they were a characteristic of earlier guns and the trend today is probably just that - toward earlier guns.
Guest
I agree, I see a lot of wooden patch boxes today however, to me there is nothing more beautiful then a brass patch box that is fit perfectly and showing signs of the first bit of patina, a brass patch box is the heart of a flintlock.
:front:
TheGunCellar
:front:
TheGunCellar
They have become one of the defineing features of the earlier guns, where the multi pieced brass boxes of the Golden age are favored by some, many have found the earlier guns with wooded boxes or wide simple brass boxes to be more to their liking, some builders used wood boxes intio the late 1700's as always some folks resisted change in style and fashion.
There is an interesting quote from Joe Kindig Jr. in "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age" P.28,
Although the earliest Kentuckys had sliding wooden patch box lids,I believe that the brass patch box had come into existence before 1750.Because the seperate wooden cover was unhandy in the constant use of greased patches,it was soon discarded by many gunsmiths in favor of the hinged metal lid.I doubt that one percent of the Kentucky rifles made in the eighteenth century had sliding wooden patch box covers.This is one more reason why I feel that the
recesses in German guns were not used for patches.If they had been,the German gunsmiths would have soon realized this inefficiency and might well have thought of using hinged metal lids just as the Kentucky rifle makers did in America."
Mr. Johnson has opined that there seem to more modern Kentuckys now with sliding wooden lids and I believe he is correct. One reason is,as Maestro has correctly stated,that there are more early style rifles being made and used today.Another is that like the proliferation of longhunters in almost astronomical numbers,the same may be happening in early Kentuckys albeit on a much smaller scale.That smaller scale is largely due to the fact that with a few exceptions most very early {pre revolutionary}rifles are more expensive than many reenactors can afford not to mention the fact that many reenactors through lack of study simply aren't as familiar with the early guns as they should be.Still another reason is that many reenactors are still in love with the classic Golden Age guns with the elaborate relief carving and engraved boxes.The truth of the matter is that many if not most of the guns carried on the edge of the frontier were quite plain in appearance and I daresay that guns without any type of box were far more common than most reenactors realize.I have a very plain smooth rifle possibly of Southern origin with a 47" full octagon swamped barrel in about .55 cal.It is relatively straight stocked with no cheek piece or box and has a Ketland fowler lock,stepped butt piece and guard all from a mid 18th century English Ketland fowler.I date the gun in the last quarter of the 18th century give or take a few years. As I have said before I see far too many reenactors doing F&I and longhunter impressions carrying Federal Period and later rifles.The classic Tennessee rifle with the banana box or grease hole and simple iron furniture including a strap guard is a good example of a late {Ca.post 1800}rifle carried in a much earlier setting.Admittedly that is an extreme case but you get the point.I hope I haven't stepped on too many toes here but that's what I think.
Tom Patton :m2c:
Although the earliest Kentuckys had sliding wooden patch box lids,I believe that the brass patch box had come into existence before 1750.Because the seperate wooden cover was unhandy in the constant use of greased patches,it was soon discarded by many gunsmiths in favor of the hinged metal lid.I doubt that one percent of the Kentucky rifles made in the eighteenth century had sliding wooden patch box covers.This is one more reason why I feel that the
recesses in German guns were not used for patches.If they had been,the German gunsmiths would have soon realized this inefficiency and might well have thought of using hinged metal lids just as the Kentucky rifle makers did in America."
Mr. Johnson has opined that there seem to more modern Kentuckys now with sliding wooden lids and I believe he is correct. One reason is,as Maestro has correctly stated,that there are more early style rifles being made and used today.Another is that like the proliferation of longhunters in almost astronomical numbers,the same may be happening in early Kentuckys albeit on a much smaller scale.That smaller scale is largely due to the fact that with a few exceptions most very early {pre revolutionary}rifles are more expensive than many reenactors can afford not to mention the fact that many reenactors through lack of study simply aren't as familiar with the early guns as they should be.Still another reason is that many reenactors are still in love with the classic Golden Age guns with the elaborate relief carving and engraved boxes.The truth of the matter is that many if not most of the guns carried on the edge of the frontier were quite plain in appearance and I daresay that guns without any type of box were far more common than most reenactors realize.I have a very plain smooth rifle possibly of Southern origin with a 47" full octagon swamped barrel in about .55 cal.It is relatively straight stocked with no cheek piece or box and has a Ketland fowler lock,stepped butt piece and guard all from a mid 18th century English Ketland fowler.I date the gun in the last quarter of the 18th century give or take a few years. As I have said before I see far too many reenactors doing F&I and longhunter impressions carrying Federal Period and later rifles.The classic Tennessee rifle with the banana box or grease hole and simple iron furniture including a strap guard is a good example of a late {Ca.post 1800}rifle carried in a much earlier setting.Admittedly that is an extreme case but you get the point.I hope I haven't stepped on too many toes here but that's what I think.
Tom Patton :m2c:
Kindig's excellent book focused on "Golden Age" guns made between 1775 and 1810 for the most part. Several knowledgeable students of the longrifle believe Kindig was often about 5-10 years "early" on his dates.
The wooden patchbox was used in certain areas like the Lehigh Valley quite late on plainer guns and smoothbored longguns. It's cheaper and easier to make and install than a brass box.
The earliest brass patchbox rifles are all undated, like almost all early guns, but Kindig may have been right about the brass box appearing as early as 1750. In those early guns it generally was a 2 piece box w/o side panels or a side-hinged affair.
When I build a gun with the idea that it represents something made betwen the French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War, I follow existing guns that most folks date to that period. Sliding wooden boxes certainly pre-dated hinged brass boxes, though both were used in that period. By using a group of early features including a swamped barrel large at the breech, a bore of .50 or larger, a broad buttplate with little curvature, a Germanic lock without a pan bridle or an English lock with a rounded plate and cock, and a sliding wooden patchbox or simple 2-piece brass one, the maker can evoke a specific time period, then the architecure can evoke the place. At least that's what we strive for.
The wooden patchbox was used in certain areas like the Lehigh Valley quite late on plainer guns and smoothbored longguns. It's cheaper and easier to make and install than a brass box.
The earliest brass patchbox rifles are all undated, like almost all early guns, but Kindig may have been right about the brass box appearing as early as 1750. In those early guns it generally was a 2 piece box w/o side panels or a side-hinged affair.
When I build a gun with the idea that it represents something made betwen the French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War, I follow existing guns that most folks date to that period. Sliding wooden boxes certainly pre-dated hinged brass boxes, though both were used in that period. By using a group of early features including a swamped barrel large at the breech, a bore of .50 or larger, a broad buttplate with little curvature, a Germanic lock without a pan bridle or an English lock with a rounded plate and cock, and a sliding wooden patchbox or simple 2-piece brass one, the maker can evoke a specific time period, then the architecure can evoke the place. At least that's what we strive for.
Guest
This became a very interesting post :applause:, I want to thank those of you who went the extra mile with in-depth information, Both my knowledge and my interest have been elevated.
:thanks:
TheGunCellar
:thanks:
TheGunCellar
?,I have always wondered why the patch box was invented to begin with. Outside of cosmetic appearance, it seems impractical to carry one item in the stock,and the rest in a horn and possibles bag, when that item too was/is handier out of the bag.
Has anyone read/heard of a legitimate reason for this invention?
Thanks as always in advance for any informaton, Ronnie
Has anyone read/heard of a legitimate reason for this invention?
Thanks as always in advance for any informaton, Ronnie
ff:Perhaps a new post for your question would be in order.
Kentucky rifles are generally considered to have derived from Germanic rifles as well as English,Dutch,and French fowlers.Germanic rifles popularly called Jaegers generally had a butt trap in the area we know today a box which was used for storage of tools etc.I can find no evidence of similar boxes on Dutch and French guns but George Shumway in "Rifles of Colonial America Vol.II PP.63-67 shows an English flintlock rifle with a box and flared octagon barrel made by William Turvey of London in the early 18th century.The Central European gunsmiths continued the practice of placing boxes on their rifles but soon realized that the needs of a rifleman in America were quite different from those of his counterpart in Europe who used the gun primarily for hunting and target shooting, two activities that were usually conducted in good weather and without the fear of an enemy being encountered.To American riflemen on the other hand the rifle was a tool used for survival and was used in all kinds of circumstances and weather.A sliding wooden box lid which became stuck presented no great threat to the German Jaeger but it could mean life or death to the American rifleman.I believe that it was for this reason that sliding wooden box lids were very soon supplanted by hinged metal ones and were brass to conform with the other mountings of the[url] rifle.In[/url] addition the brass box lids weren't as susceptible to rust and were easier to fabricate.Just some thoughts on Kentucky rifle boxes.
Tom Patton :imo:
Tom Patton :imo:
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Stophel
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The box was used for tow, worm, pick, etc. YES the Germans and everyone else used patches. ALWAYS have. The old saw about hammering a groove sized lead ball down the bore is an old wives' tale. I have a Christie's auction catalog with lots of German rifles in it. One of the rifles is described as still retaining a tow worm, a bit of tow, and a tin powder measure in the wood box.
I have never had a wood box lid get stuck. (another reason for the tapered dovetail!!!) It cannot possibly get more humid than it does here.
Frankly, I can do without them entirely, but they do help dress up that side of the stock...
In the same auction catalog, there is a group of really neat Flemish rifles. If I were to just look at them, I would have sworn they were German. Very nicely designed. Wood boxes and all. Generally, when you see rifles made in England, Russia, Sweden, etc. they will often have wood boxes in emulation of their German forebears.
I have never had a wood box lid get stuck. (another reason for the tapered dovetail!!!) It cannot possibly get more humid than it does here.
Frankly, I can do without them entirely, but they do help dress up that side of the stock...
In the same auction catalog, there is a group of really neat Flemish rifles. If I were to just look at them, I would have sworn they were German. Very nicely designed. Wood boxes and all. Generally, when you see rifles made in England, Russia, Sweden, etc. they will often have wood boxes in emulation of their German forebears.
I've often wondered about that...
Were the mallets included in many sets of early 19th century guns just short starters then?
I know the spanish were using olive oil soaked thin leather (I guess scraped leather, like the original parchment) for patches as early as 1650, although rifles never seem to have caught on much in spain.
Stophel
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The earliest known use of short starters was sometime in the 19th century. I think they're horrible and worse than useless. If the ball is too tight to press in with your thumb, or at most, with the butt of your knife, it is too tight.
Mike Brooks
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I've always found the tightest patch/ball combo I could load with a short starter to be the most accurate, especially in smooth bores. Ain't that somethin'? :hmm:
I get the best mileage when I drive at 45 mph. It just ain't practical in real life.
Same with shorth starters. If it's the difference between 4" and 2" at 100 yards it still ain't worth the bother to use that tight a load.
You'll break yer rammer! No wonder these poor misled souls "need" short starters, range rods and brass rammers. They're strainin. :nono: ::
Same with shorth starters. If it's the difference between 4" and 2" at 100 yards it still ain't worth the bother to use that tight a load.
You'll break yer rammer! No wonder these poor misled souls "need" short starters, range rods and brass rammers. They're strainin. :nono: ::
:hmm: ...wooden patch boxes...short starters... there must be a connection there somwhere ::
:winking:
:winking:
Fleming was doing research on the antibiotic properties of human tears when he discovered penicillin, which has nothing to do with human tears.
Never be afraid to wander. ::
Was grease kept in the patchbox? :hmm: Some later rifles have a lidless grease hole. Perhaps the lid was just to keep crud and ants out of the grease.
I think there is much more interest in early flinters (1750 +/-) now than there has been since they were new. 40 years ago everyone was just appy to have a smokepole. Now we're finiky about anachronisms and sech. Retter research, better connections. The evolution of the thread counter.
Never be afraid to wander. ::
Was grease kept in the patchbox? :hmm: Some later rifles have a lidless grease hole. Perhaps the lid was just to keep crud and ants out of the grease.
I think there is much more interest in early flinters (1750 +/-) now than there has been since they were new. 40 years ago everyone was just appy to have a smokepole. Now we're finiky about anachronisms and sech. Retter research, better connections. The evolution of the thread counter.
Newtire
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I inherited my great Grandpa’s rifle. It’s a .38 caliber Scheutzen style rifle built by a G. Spangler in Monroe Wisconsin around 1850. It has a brass box on the side that was full of some sort of grease. There were discussions between my uncles about whether it was earwax or anything else they could come up with from all sorts of parts of various animals just to get us kids to laugh. They were a pretty fun bunch.
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This is funny, I was talking to Chuck Edwards about this yesterday. He is at the Fort de Chartres Winter shoot and has a Colonial period wood patch box and a later brass patch box rifles for sale, both beautiful guns (I should have taken pictures but did not think about it at the time)
For some reason all of my rifles that have patch boxes seem to have wood ones, not a brass one in the bunch, I guess that shows where my tastes are at. Some golden age guns just over do it in my eyes, look like the front of a 1959 Buick Roadmaster.
I like simple, a little wood carving, a little engraving, maybe just a hint of wire inlay.
YMMV
For some reason all of my rifles that have patch boxes seem to have wood ones, not a brass one in the bunch, I guess that shows where my tastes are at. Some golden age guns just over do it in my eyes, look like the front of a 1959 Buick Roadmaster.
I like simple, a little wood carving, a little engraving, maybe just a hint of wire inlay.
YMMV
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